Omex 600 Questions

[Adamio]

Been reading the information about this on the K-Tec site (http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2351).

Am i right in thinking that on a Ph2 you have to change to cable throttle to be able to run the Omex 600 ?

Also what's the cheapest place to buy an Omex 600 with the Clio loom ?

The K-Tec one above works out over £2000 for a Ph2, but for £700 more you could have the complete K-Tec ITB kit.

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

You will have to run cable TB setup yes. As for the rest, not sure, but you can buy direct from Omex iirc

 

[Fred@BTM]

there's an ECU on the way for the clios that does FBW control so i've heard...............

 

[Bazzon]

there's an ECU on the way for the clios that does FBW control so i've heard...............

.....................:rasp:

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

there's an ECU on the way for the clios that does FBW control so i've heard...............

sounds interesting, not that it matters on my track toy. There's a few aftermarket ECU's with DBW control, dont think any are road legal that are within a realistic budget before people mention Pectel and high end DTA chips lol

 

[Fred@BTM]

wait and see what the guv'nor says

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

i have an omex 600, while there is nothing wrong with it, there is a lot better options availiable. May i ask why bother with another ecu the standard one is loads more powerful if you know who to tune it properly and definatly pointless unless you are running itb's or similar

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

wait and see what the guv'nor says

Paul Ince? :rasp:

Dont see the hangup on DBW, maybe it's just because im old, but I hate it even though I appreciate the benefits!

TBH with all due respect, threads like this seem pointless here as everyone has an opinion on the matter, however seldom is the advice what's best for the end user, more whats best for someone else's pocket. This is just a general observation before knickers are twisted! lol

 

[Adamio]

May i ask why bother with another ecu the standard one is loads more powerful if you know who to tune it properly and definatly pointless unless you are running itb's or similar

Knowing someone to tune it properly is my problem. I'm not aware of anyone around the South East who can map the standard ecu apart from a simple reflash. I know RSTuning can but thats a long way away from me.

My engine is going to be rebuilt in the next few weeks. At the moment i'm deciding what's worth upgrading while it's apart. I already have Schrick cams and am thinking about ITB's (either now or nearer the end of the year). That's why i am thinking about the Omex as there are more local places which can map it and i'm thinking about future upgrades.

 

[Mark One]

Knowing someone to tune it properly is my problem. I'm not aware of anyone around the South East who can map the standard ecu apart from a simple reflash. I know RSTuning can but thats a long way away from me.

My engine is going to be rebuilt in the next few weeks. At the moment i'm deciding what's worth upgrading while it's apart. I already have Schrick cams and am thinking about ITB's (either now or nearer the end of the year). That's why i am thinking about the Omex as there are more local places which can map it and i'm thinking about future upgrades.

But having said that. Omex plus fitting is alot more than a trip up to leeds for 1 or 2 days.
If your serious about ITBs though, then Omex would be a good way to go. GDI/omex have great support for it and it's always good to know there is other people running the same setup with great success.

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

Well the Omex is a solid bit of kit, it's based on the Gems ECU's, so even the software and maps are compatible and Gems have been around donkeys years. Cant go too far wrong with a standalone even on a stock or relatively stock engine imo, but add ITB's, cams, turbo, charger etc and you'll be laughing

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Knowing someone to tune it properly is my problem. I'm not aware of anyone around the South East who can map the standard ecu apart from a simple reflash. I know RSTuning can but thats a long way away from me.

My engine is going to be rebuilt in the next few weeks. At the moment i'm deciding what's worth upgrading while it's apart. I already have Schrick cams and am thinking about ITB's (either now or nearer the end of the year). That's why i am thinking about the Omex as there are more local places which can map it and i'm thinking about future upgrades.

Well you need to decide if your have itb's or not, cos imho an aftermarket ecu is a bit of a waste unless you do because you'll gain nothing over a remap on your standard ecu and it'll be a lot cheaper

 

[fmp_]

i have an omex 600, while there is nothing wrong with it, there is a lot better options availiable. May i ask why bother with another ecu the standard one is loads more powerful if you know who to tune it properly and definatly pointless unless you are running itb's or similar

with regards to the better ECU's, what is it that the Omex doesnt do for you, that another ECU would?

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

with regards to the better ECU's, what is it that the Omex doesnt do for you, that another ECU would?

Sequential ignition and fueling, wideband control, traction control, logging. The 600 is fine and does what you pay for. Minimum i should have got would have been the 710

 

[sideways danny]

Sequential ignition and fueling, wideband control, traction control, logging. The 600 is fine and does what you pay for. Minimum i should have got would have been the 710

if you need wideband control, the mapping is wrong. Narrowband on omex can make 30% changes in either direction if needed, and narrowband is actually faster to react in driving so is the right thing to use. The Omex 710 wil do fully sequential fuel and ignition, however, the 1*2 has a wasted spark coilpack, and runs batch fire as standard, so the 600 is the obvious, and correct choice unless you want the added expense of individual coils (notoriously unreliable from renault for the ones that would be direct fit)

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

if you need wideband control, the mapping is wrong. Narrowband on omex can make 30% changes in either direction if needed, and narrowband is actually faster to react in driving so is the right thing to use. The Omex 710 wil do fully sequential fuel and ignition, however, the 1*2 has a wasted spark coilpack, and runs batch fire as standard, so the 600 is the obvious, and correct choice unless you want the added expense of individual coils (notoriously unreliable from renault for the ones that would be direct fit)

A cheap wideband IS slower than a narrowband, however a proper wideband is not slower than a narrowband, else you wouldn't be able to map with it!

I also disagree with the unreliable pencil coils, if they were that bad, why has most manufacturers gone over to them (197 inc.) . IMHO i would say they were better than a coil pack, because if that failed, engine dies, if a pencil goes down, you get a misfiring cylinder that could get you out of trouble if needed.

And as for me needing a wideband, i bought one to monitor my AFR (and make some adjustments to save my engine), due to finding out after a roling road session, my fuelling was all over the place, and you know who mapped my car! (so lets not go there)

here endeth

Daz

 

[sideways danny]

A cheap wideband IS slower than a narrowband, however a proper wideband is not slower than a narrowband, else you wouldn't be able to map with it!m

incorrect. narrowband is always faster for CONTROL, ie fuel trim

I also disagree with the unreliable pencil coils, if they were that bad, why has most manufacturers gone over to them (197 inc.) . IMHO i would say they were better than a coil pack, because if that failed, engine dies, if a pencil goes down, you get a misfiring cylinder that could get you out of trouble if needed.

so unreliable, the AA and RAC keep renault pencil coils onboard their vans.

Poor justification for spending to "upgrade" when there's nothing wrong with wasted spark. You would see no discernable benefit in driving.

And as for me needing a wideband, i bought one to monitor my AFR (and make some adjustments to save my engine), due to finding out after a roling road session, my fuelling was all over the place, and you know who mapped my car! (so lets not go there)

i didn't mention the use of wideband for monitoring at all. Monitoring and control are 2 totally different things

here endeth

Daz

might want to check yourself before you start with the sermons

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

incorrect. narrowband is always faster for CONTROL, ie fuel trim


so unreliable, the AA and RAC keep renault pencil coils onboard their vans.

Poor justification for spending to "upgrade" when there's nothing wrong with wasted spark. You would see no discernable benefit in driving.

i didn't mention the use of wideband for monitoring at all. Monitoring and control are 2 totally different things



might want to check yourself before you start with the sermons

So your saying for control a £50 narrowband sensor is better than a £1000 wideband? whatever.

maybe they keep the coils because so many cars have them? nissan and renault use the same coils and probably others too

I never said there was anything wrong with wasted spark, i said there was advantages to sequential fuel and spark, eg controlling individual cylinders etc

I didn't mention about using the wideband as control, so ner.......... because i would need a £1k wideband to do the job properly!

I think you asked why i needed a wideband, because unless the map wasn't very good, narrowband is fine. my answer is after driving my car around for 18 months and then you find out the map isn't so good, as in going very lean on full throttle on at least 2 sites, i needed to get it sorted at the time as cheaply as possible (before any permanant damage was done), and wideband was the answer, at least i trust my work and it's done properly.

I put here endeth for a reason, because i wanted to just let the problems i had lie (believe me i've had a load more problems with my car than just a map!)

 

[sideways danny]

Wideband sensors are £60-£100 these days, they're normally the same sensor used as OEM on VAG vehicles and others, so they're quite accessable. Wideband reading/monitoring/logging equipment is around £300-£500. Where the hell has £1k come from? Price is no indication of suitability for the job BTW. A narrowband sensor is the appropriate device for closed loop control. Wideband is used for adaption/self learning on modern cars due to the nature of mass production.

Renault pencil coils ARE unreliable, they're also cheap, which is i believe why they're used across the range, ie one size fits all for peanuts

This fueling check done after the cam timing was done by yourself? and on a different head? and you're suprised there were differences?

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Wideband sensors are £60-£100 these days, they're normally the same sensor used as OEM on VAG vehicles and others, so they're quite accessable. Wideband reading/monitoring/logging equipment is around £300-£500. Where the hell has £1k come from? Price is no indication of suitability for the job BTW. A narrowband sensor is the appropriate device for closed loop control. Wideband is used for adaption/self learning on modern cars due to the nature of mass production.


This fueling check done after the cam timing was done by yourself? and on a different head? and you're suprised there were differences?

The £100 sensors you are on about are the slow ones. £1k ones i've seen with my own eyes when used to tune Pectel ecus.

Who said i had done the timing or changed the head? when i went on a group power run the engine and ecu was as it left the workshop 18 months before. i then altered the fuelling to save my engine until i could afford to get it mapped properly. I later found out the timing was 1/2 tooth out ( on the inlet) after the exhaust cam pulley slipped (bolt can't have been torqued properly) and also found my flywheel was loose too.

 

[Icarus]

Danny - 172/182 does not run batch fire fueling as standard. It runs semi/fully sequential depending on a few variables. See the workshop manual for details.

A 50 quid Bosch LSU is never going to be any good for accurate results. As per a narrowband sensor these are used mainly for finer control of fueling at low speed/idle for emissions compliance.

The basic Pectel wideband is custom produced by NTK for Pectel and starts at £360 just for the sensor. It gives accurate readings at around 20hz and I've used them for closed loop fueling control on everything from BTCC cars to Hart V10's in the back of Arrows F1 cars. Wideband is extremely useful, especialy for closed loop fuel control which on an ITB application where you probably have no baro compensation or similar as it enables you to ensure accurate fueling across the board.

Wideband/closed loop fueling isn't absolutely required but at the same time it is another feature which allows you to get closer to optimal for more of the time and as such generate greater torque/power from an engine package whilst at the same time ensuring reliability.

Cheers
M

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

^ that's what i was trying to say, lol

 

[sideways danny]

Danny - 172/182 does not run batch fire fueling as standard. It runs semi/fully sequential depending on a few variables. See the workshop manual for details.

fair point, typing slip TBH. I ment it was semi

The basic Pectel wideband is custom produced by NTK for Pectel and starts at £360 just for the sensor. It gives accurate readings at around 20hz and I've used them for closed loop fueling control on everything from BTCC cars to Hart V10's in the back of Arrows F1 cars.

i think you've got lost in some alternate reality where people drive racing cars on the road, and are prepared to actually part with far more money than they need to. FFS i've seen people penny pinch and not run a lambda at all just to save a few quid (forgetting they'll lose out on economy, as sadly so many people are short sighted about these things), Why would they spend many hundreds more than necessary??

The key phrase is "Suitability for the intended application"

 

[Icarus]

No alternative reality here. Even using a boggo LSU will give you accurate enough AFR readings to run a closed loop fueling strategy at steady state/idle. Hence why the OEM's use them!

If you can apply pro-motorsport ethos with regards to accuarcy and performance to a road car application within budget and whilst exceeding the initial requirement why wouldn't you?

Every application is different, you can still accurately control fueling without any lambda at all, assuming you have baro sensing and sufficent cal skills. For what its worth I've run ex F1 engines on just four sensors - now thats one thing you'd never do on a road car!

Cheers
M

 

[Whiteley]

Daz/Icarus 1 - 0 Sideways

:slap:

 

[sideways danny]

within budget and whilst exceeding the initial requirement

This is a problem. Peoples requirements (or percieved requirements) are endless, their budgets are as small as possible.

4 sensors on a road car is quite viable :S am i missing something?

 

[sideways danny]

Daz/Icarus 1 - 0 Sideways

:slap:

What's so hard to comprehend about suitability of application?

 

[Icarus]

This is a problem. Peoples requirements (or percieved requirements) are endless, their budgets are as small as possible.

4 sensors on a road car is quite viable :S am i missing something?

Barometric and Lambda for a start - both requirements for a road car engine package IMHO. Specific MOT maps etc. isn't what a road car customer wants to have to deal with.

Cheers
M

 

[sideways danny]

I've put plenty of ITB cars in for MOT without an issue. Baro is nice, but it's not necessary

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

I've put plenty of ITB cars in for MOT without an issue. Baro is nice, but it's not necessary

That's nice for you shame you weren't around when mine was sorted because it never has passed an emission mot test, with cat fitted, just been lucky with the tester i use.
Will be all different and better soon

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

This is a problem. Peoples requirements (or percieved requirements) are endless, their budgets are as small as possible.

4 sensors on a road car is quite viable :S am i missing something?

If people's budget are too small to do the job properly, then i wouldn't do the work!

Majority of the time the customer has no idea what they need (not want) and need advising as such without being ripped off.

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

The key phrase is "Suitability for the intended application"

Exactly. Like i was saying days back, the omex 600 is fine, but if i knew what i know now, i would have got a better ecu, be it omex or not!

You get what you pay for