Making a 200 BHP clio?

[04kendalld]

hi i have been looking into making my 172 200bhp+



been told this is possible by doing the following:

uprating the fuel injecters
changing cams
decat
remap

this would make me well on my waybut wondering your faults is this possible without Turbo charging the clio.

any help would be appreciated on what parts or any help thanks

 

[Fred@BTM]

possible, but on the stock pistons/stock comp ratio a REAL 200bhp i don't think is possible (on commercial fuel), stick it on person x's dyno and it'll do it, real world no

 

[Dan519]

injectors will flow enough for over 200 already, pointless changing them at this level.
cat isn't really a restriction, maybe a tiny advantage to removing it but not much.
Cams are worthwhile but as above, on their own won't get you to 200 unless there's something unusual with your engine
Remap.....incidental really, you map to suit the mods and get the most from them.

Give yourself a realistic target of 190ish and you won't be disappointed

 

[sonny172cup]

ITBs FTW

 

[Dan519]

that too

 

[04kendalld]

injectors will flow enough for over 200 already, pointless changing them at this level.
cat isn't really a restriction, maybe a tiny advantage to removing it but not much.
Cams are worthwhile but as above, on their own won't get you to 200 unless there's something unusual with your engine
Remap.....incidental really, you map to suit the mods and get the most from them.

Give yourself a realistic target of 190ish and you won't be disappointed

so could you help point me in the right direction for what parts etc for 190?

thank

 

[Chip-mk1]

so could you help point me in the right direction for what parts etc for 190?

thank

Depending on your starting point (the F4R engine varies in standard output more than most) then a set of cams, a decent air filter and a good remap will see you around the 190bhp mark if you have a decent exhaust on there already. Decat not essential if your cat is in good order but will help if yours is starting to get a bit coked up now.

 

[syko6288]

Cams
Itbs
Free flowing exhaust
Live Re-map to suit mods

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cams
Itbs
Free flowing exhaust
Live Re-map to suit mods

He'll be over 200bhp with ITBs and cams if done properly.

Big jump in cost for the extra bhp though of course.

But undoubtably the way to go for most power N/A

Into turbo money though by the time you have done cams and bodies etc, the same 3-4K would get him 250bhp+ that way.

 

[04kendalld]

Depending on your starting point (the F4R engine varies in standard output more than most) then a set of cams, a decent air filter and a good remap will see you around the 190bhp mark if you have a decent exhaust on there already. Decat not essential if your cat is in good order but will help if yours is starting to get a bit coked up now.

cheers for the help.

ive got a BMC induction.
ive seen many different cams what one would be suitable for me?

 

[Chip-mk1]

cheers for the help.

ive got a BMC induction.
ive seen many different cams what one would be suitable for me?

Catcams 438 or engine dynamics 001 cams would both be well suited on an internally standard engine chasing bhp.

 

[04kendalld]

someone was saying not to get for bhp chasing and to focus on acceleration, what would this incur, same setup?

sorry for all the questions

 

[Silent_Scone]

ITB's and cams

Done.

 

[Chip-mk1]

someone was saying not to get for bhp chasing and to focus on acceleration, what would this incur, same setup?

sorry for all the questions

BHP is what gives you acceleration anyway, so its the same thing.

Unless they meant doing things like losing as much weight from the car as possible which is a valid way to see an increase in performance without needing more bhp, but only if you can accept losing creature comforts to do it.

 

[04kendalld]

BHP is what gives you acceleration anyway, so its the same thing.

Unless they meant doing things like losing as much weight from the car as possible which is a valid way to see an increase in performance without needing more bhp, but only if you can accept losing creature comforts to do it.

i did see that cage on here from ebay for like 160 and was thinking about getting that removing the seats what else?

 

[Chip-mk1]

i did see that cage on here from ebay for like 160 and was thinking about getting that removing the seats what else?

A cage will only making you slower in a straight line, but great for safety and can even help a little with handling by stiffening the shell up.

What is it you use your car for mate? And what sort of budget do you have to spend on it?

Have you done things like new trackrods/ trackrod ends/ balljoints / steering rack bushes etc, to make sure its as pinsharp handling wise as an rs clio should be?

 

[04kendalld]

A cage will only making you slower in a straight line, but great for safety and can even help a little with handling by stiffening the shell up.

What is it you use your car for mate? And what sort of budget do you have to spend on it?

Have you done things like new trackrods/ trackrod ends/ balljoints / steering rack bushes etc, to make sure its as pinsharp handling wise as an rs clio should be?

i just want it to be quick in a straight line lol,

erm not sure on budget just i would buy something things monthly

havent done any of that

 

[Nick172Cup]

If you want it to be just quicker in a straight line, turbo charge it. N/A 200bhp clios wont make that happy for what you would of spent.

 

[Skeeter]

If you want it to be just quicker in a straight line, turbo charge it. N/A 200bhp clios wont make that happy for what you would of spent.

This.

Spending 250bhp money on making it 200bhp just to keep it N/A?

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you want it to be just quicker in a straight line, turbo charge it. N/A 200bhp clios wont make that happy for what you would of spent.

Or possibly just buy a different car better to suited to tuning for that sort of application?

Mk4 astra turbo for example.

 

[04kendalld]

Or possibly just buy a different car better to suited to tuning for that sort of application?

Mk4 astra turbo for example.

but i love clios lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

but i love clios lol

Well then get spending!

Ive got a turbo a one buried amongst our N/A ones, and its pretty epic in a straight line, definitely the way to go if that is what interests you. But expect a fairly hefty bill sadly!

 

[Eddyg]

Yea, i would agree with the buy another car if you out and out acceleration. Not that it is not possible in a clio just will cost a lot of money! Hence my two! I love the clio and its awsome on track. But for the same money i could spend on the clio getting a 200bhp NA i could have 340 bhp + in the skyline...

 

[Knuckles]

but i love clios lol

Fit a megane 225/230 engine
More bhp as standard and then when you fancy a bit more poke, you'll be able to get more bhp per £ than you would a n/a clio engine

 

[maudy]

as the others, I went the other way and got my fast tuning car first, the camaro. while the clio is the DD with enough power to keep me happy and handles well on b roads.

I've seen mates before spend 20K on a red top corsa (sorry to say that on a clio forum) and I got a bmw 323 coupe as a transition car that kept up in a straight line and for a fraction of the cost, clealy the camaro blows it away....

if you insist on keeping the clio, forced induction is the way to go.

 

[Chip-mk1]

as the others, I went the other way my fast tuning car is the camaro, the clio is the DD with enough power to keep me happy and handles well on b roads.

I've seen mates before spend 20K on a red top corsa (sorry to say that word on a clio forum) and I got a bmw 323 coupe as a transition car that kept up in a straight line for a fraction of the cost, clealy the camaro blows it away....

if you insist on keeping the clio, forced induction is the way to go.

20K on a redtop corsa should be utterly trouncing an M3 let alone a 323, so your mate is clearly not spending his money in the right places!

Assuming half that budget is for the engine, Thats 270bhp N/A or 500bhp Turbo from one of those engines.

Unlike an F4R those engines ARE easy to get power from!

 

[Russ_16v]

Tuning is a crossroads.

You can spend, say £1500 and have a genuine 190bhp, but to get over 200 bhp (so an extra 10bhp) would cost you a lot more, possibly double your initial £1500.

If you are only after getting it a super quick car in a striaght line, then turbocharging is a no brainer - as said, to get a Clio to 200bhp will cost the same amount as turbocharging one to 250bhp - with a massive increase in torque.

But remember the more power you put in, the more stress on everything else on the way out - so (expecially with forced induction) your clutch will suffer, you will have to make sure you have decent tyres, you will need to have upgraded brakes (done properly, not just a set of greenstuff pads) plus any wear in bushes, wheel bearings, suspension conponents will become much more noticable as the car has to transfere a massive amount of power to the road.

Bear in mind that if you stay N/A and go down the cams route, you will have to budget a further £500 or so to have the cambelt and aux belts changed, plus a service (you don't want to be running new cams on old oil) though most tuners can incorperate the cost and bring it down a little if bought in a package deal.

Tuning is not cheap, and to get the power you want, be prepared to spend the amount the car actually cost you (sometimes much more) on tuning - unless you have a way of doing things a little cheaper (ie, you are able to carry out the work yourself, or you have some good contacts to get discounted parts) but please don't expect it to be an easy route - the amount of times I hear 'my 172 has 200bhp because it has an air filter (+ 5bhp) an exhaust (+ 8 bhp) a decat (+ 5 bhp) and a remap (+ 10bhp like iv seen some companies advertise) so 172bhp + 5 + 8 + 5 + 10 = 200bhp :banghead:

 

[Chip-mk1]

Also reliability becomes a matter of luck when N/A tuning an F4R engine unless you upgrade rod bolts, valves, and ideally rods and pistons too, which is another couple of grand gone.

Some people get away with 200bhp+ out of a standard head and bottom end when on cams and bodies, others dont, its an expensive risk to be taking.

 

[...]

BHP is what gives you acceleration anyway, so its the same thing.

Unless they meant doing things like losing as much weight from the car as possible which is a valid way to see an increase in performance without needing more bhp, but only if you can accept losing creature comforts to do it.

that's not strictly true that BHP gives acceleration?
That's down to the turning force which is torque. On low torque engines you can compensate with high reves and the gearbox to give you the desired effect to accelerate faster , but its still the torque doing the job. gearing will change the effective torque created at the crank and given to the driven wheels .

the whole answer is far more complicated .

 

[Chip-mk1]

that's not strictly true that BHP gives acceleration?
That's down to the turning force which is torque. On low torque engines you can compensate with high reves and the gearbox to give you the desired effect to accelerate faster , but its still the torque doing the job. gearing will change the effective torque created at the crank and given to the driven wheels .

the whole answer is far more complicated .

FLOL, just had exactly this discussion on here this morning.

BHP = torque*rpm mate.


You seem to have really thoroughly understood the mechnical advantages of a gearbox but completely failed to comprehend the effect that "use more revs on a low torque engine" actually has in terms of BHP.


There is a DIRECT relationship between torque at the wheels and BHP you have at that moment in time for the gear you are in, as gearing is implicit to that by defiition, but there is not a direct relationship with torque at the wheels and torque at the engine.

Its BHP that is key for acceleration, despite every car forum on the planet having a whole load of people who think they know better and really its torque that is key, lol

 

[...]

I disagree with you , they both have a correlation you cannot have one without the other ,

If you have a high torque low rpm engine (where we remember bhp is torque*rpm ) it will never get to the desired speed (limit is rpm )

if you have very low torque and very high rpm it will take forever to get to the desired speed but you would eventually .


Any engine builder worth their salt will be aiming for a flat torque curve that ramps quickly and stays flat over the longest range of rpm possible this is reality will give you a very quick race engine as this will also produce a high bhp figure as at the top end torque*revs (lets not forget the constant ) gives a healthy BHP figure .

so i would say to get that high BHP figure you have stated quite corectly it relies on torque and revs BHP is a calculation of the turning force and how quick its turning , thats why people will claim that torque is the key factor , both revs and torque have a direct influence on bhp .

 

[Chip-mk1]

I disagree with you , they both have a correlation you cannot have one without the other ,

If you have a high torque low rpm engine (where we remember bhp is torque*rpm ) it will never get to the desired speed (limit is rpm )

if you have very low torque and very high rpm it will take forever to get to the desired speed but you would eventually .

If you have a gearbox, you can be at any RPM you want once you are past the initial 20mph pull away.

Any engine builder worth their salt will be aiming for a flat torque curve that ramps quickly and stays flat over the longest range of rpm possible this is reality will give you a very quick race engine as this will also produce a high bhp figure as at the top end torque*revs (lets not forget the constant ) gives a healthy BHP figure .

A good useable rev band is a key factor without a doubt, but its a good useable spread of BHP you need, not of torque.
All it needs to do (other than initial launch from stationary) is be wide enough to cover the width of a gearchange, anymore is irrelevant to a straight line race.

so i would say to get that high BHP figure you have stated quite corectly it relies on torque and revs BHP is a calculation of the turning force and how quick its turning , thats why people will claim that torque is the key factor , both revs and torque have a direct influence on bhp .

You cant seem to see your own good explanation as to why its BHP that matters more (ie because by definition BHP is a summary of both the important factors, torque and rpm, either one on its own is no good and if you have both then by definition you have bhp!) lol

Two engines:
500lbft 200bhp
200lbft 250bhp

Which is capable of better acceleration assuming each has appropriate gearing?

 

[...]

i think we will agree to disagree , as i really do think the torque figure (we have recently been doing a lot with this on the dyno looking at single geared 2 stroke engines ) those winning races have been the ones with higher torque and more useable curves and maybe down on bhp on some of the others that gave a couple of bhp more but were down on torque.

i will conceed that as bhp is a correlation of both figures then you could site it as most important but i certainly feel the torque figure has had more influence , in fact on one duratec caterham the car was faster due to its torque with a 5 speed and less changes than it was with a 6 speed , and i am sure you can see the reasons for that (mainly due to not getting a diff to spread those 6 gears so the torquey engine could use it better.)

 

[Chip-mk1]

It's far less crucial to get gearing right on a car with a good torque spread so if you only have limited gearbox options available it can be very important.
The burpspeed car being a good example, if their power was more peaky to gain bhp (ie hotter cams) they would only be quicker if they changed box too or if they could rev it higher which on standard lifters they cant.

So often other things compromise you.

In your example if you had a very close ratio box available you would probably find the extra torque less useful that it is currently, this is why I had the caveat about bhp bein the key factor if appropriate gearing is available to make use of it.

Also in your example was it the straights it was quicker on than the car with more bhp instead like the op is looking for, or an advantage in terms of having torque available now at an rpm point that he was forced to be at due to his limited gearing and a corner dictating it?


Its simpler to be fast if you have more torque as it makes things like gearing less crucial typically, but it's not ultimately the key factor for in gear straightline acceleration,bhp is.

 

[Gally]

Why not buy one that was only built 4 weeks ago costing about 10k all in. There are usually 1 or 2 kicking about and you can let the other guy get bored and take the hit.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Why not buy one that was only built 4 weeks ago costing about 10k all in. There are usually 1 or 2 kicking about and you can let the other guy get bored and take the hit.

So true, modified clios hold their value like last weeks losing lottery tickets.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Also reliability becomes a matter of luck when N/A tuning an F4R engine unless you upgrade rod bolts, valves, and ideally rods and pistons too, which is another couple of grand gone.

Some people get away with 200bhp+ out of a standard head and bottom end when on cams and bodies, others dont, its an expensive risk to be taking.

The F4R takes 200bhp all day long as long as you don't sit on the limiter. Rod bolts as an absoloute precaution maybe.

 

[Chip-mk1]

The F4R takes 200bhp all day long as long as you don't sit on the limiter. Rod bolts as an absoloute precaution maybe.

Totally a matter of luck, the piston casting quality is very poorly controlled, some of them are ok, some of them arent.

Here is a 200bhp F4R piston that wasnt sat on the limiter all day or anything like that:

On close examination you could see easily why it failed, there was a dirty great air bubble at the start of the cracked off section.

Like I said, its a matter of luck if the imperfections in yours happen to fall somewhere important or not.


The valves are more consistant, but the life they have had isnt, so its not unheard of for them to fail either when used a lot at high rpm, id happily use a new set if I had to although there is no point when you can get supertech instead, so again it depends if you are feeling lucky or not running high mile standard ones.

 

[Silent_Scone]

I'd take my chances, that would of probably failed regardless. I'd rather a standard engine let go than a forged spec purely on the basis if the forged engine goes tits up you've got to fork out again.

F4R engines are peanuts. Besides, piston failure isn't all that common on these mate. Mine munched metal mesh and still made good power

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'd take my chances, that would of probably failed regardless.

The piston is under more strain on an ITB engine, so if your pistons are borderline they might not fail on standard inlet but then do on the ITBs (like in this case)

I'd rather a standard engine let go than a forged spec purely on the basis if the forged engine goes tits up you've got to fork out again.

Of course, anyone would prefer a standard one let go to a forged one, but at least this is one reason for letting go that you are unlikely to fall foul of on a forged one.

F4R engines are peanuts. Besides, piston failure isn't all that common on these mate. Mine munched metal mesh and still made good power

Depends on your application and it depends on if you can keep yanking them in and out yourself to replace if you do get unlucky.
So for example Porkies engine that piston came from we put forged pistons in because he doesnt want it to keep having to have it out of action for secondhand engines to be thrown at it and its got money in the head (neil roper port job, supertech, uprated cams) which if the standard bottom end lets go can get written off too, so its a sensible investment to just cough up an extra 500 quid for forged rods and pistons over the price of new rings and ARP rod bolts.
By contrast on my mrs RS2 clio, I just put rings and rod bolts on and decided to take my chances with the pistons, especially as being a daily use car that gets started from cold about 20 times a week forged pistons can actually be worse for wear than standard pistons.


Its all about horses for courses, there is no one single best answer.