F4r Engine which one for high performance tunning ?

[hissingsid]

Looking at building a high spec engine, which engine would be best to start with? clio 172/182 or 197 or use a magane 225 turbo engine as a base, this engine would be NA as it's for rallying.

 

[Russ_16v]

if you are stating n/A and want decent power (200bhp+) then it doesn't matter what you start with as most of the innards will need replacing if you wish to go over 220bhp mate - what power are you after?

 

[hissingsid]

Well we have 230 at the moment, with a 172 base engine, high comp pistons cams throttle bodies etc. We are looking upwards of 260-280. was thinking the Magane engine is designed for that sort of power eg crank and maybe the head is more advanced for tuning block is stronger etc

 

[Cub.]

Well we have 230 at the moment, with a 172 base engine, high comp pistons cams throttle bodies etc. We are looking upwards of 260-280. was thinking the Magane engine is designed for that sort of power eg crank and maybe the head is more advanced for tuning block is stronger etc

230! Can I ask for full spec details please....as that is high power for an N/A F4r as it is.

 

[Mr R.]

Ktec map?

 

[The Fatty]

Well we have 230 at the moment, with a 172 base engine, high comp pistons cams throttle bodies etc. We are looking upwards of 260-280. was thinking the Magane engine is designed for that sort of power eg crank and maybe the head is more advanced for tuning block is stronger etc

Doesn't know which engine is best to start with for 'tuning' but then claims to have 230bhp already?! I call bs.

 

[Matt e]

Here's his thread from a while ago, seems he's not bullsh*ting

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=472428

 

[George182]

What an awesome little car!

 

[Corby G]

Ktec map?

Flol

 

[The Fatty]

Doesn't know which engine is best to start with for 'tuning' but then claims to have 230bhp already?! I call bs.

Here's his thread from a while ago, seems he's not bullsh*ting

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=472428

seems I was wrong, car looks awesome

 

[MG cup]

FLOL at CS calling bullshit because it has more than 220bhp, you need to look further than the pages of CS to see proper engines, 230 bhp is just scratching the surface.

OP- You would want a 197 crank as they are 1.5kg lighter and interchangeable supposedly.

197 head with 1*2 internals will lower the comp ratio so you can run a long stroke. The head might need re drilled and ported to suit the mr-23 Jenvey ITB manifold.

afaik all the blocks are the same be it f4r or f4rt. Ideally if you could find one with bigger cylinder spacing which would allow a sizable overbore and larger valves.

Look into R3 maxi engines, they are a stones throw away from what power you want and are still on single throttle, they don't command quite the price of Sodemo engines either.

 

[NorthloopCup]

FLOL at CS calling bulls**t because it has more than 220bhp, you need to look further than the pages of CS to see proper engines, 230 bhp is just scratching the surface.

OP- You would want a 197 crank as they are 1.5kg lighter and interchangeable supposedly.

197 head with 1*2 internals will lower the comp ratio so you can run a long stroke. The head might need re drilled and ported to suit the mr-23 Jenvey ITB manifold.

afaik all the blocks are the same be it f4r or f4rt. Ideally if you could find one with bigger cylinder spacing which would allow a sizable overbore and larger valves.

Look into R3 maxi engines, they are a stones throw away from what power you want and are still on single throttle, they don't command quite the price of Sodemo engines either.

197 block and f4rt have the water pump driven by the cambelt Morgan for reference. You need to drill and tap the 197/225 head to accept an idler roller like the 1*2 has to make the head work on a 1*2 block as well.

OP as Morgan states, the R3 maxi engines do indeed make the numbers, and that's only with high comp pistons and high lift cams. I know because I've got the R3 maxi kit.

 

[EVOgone]

Pure Motorsport engine is what you want. Everyone with a proper comp clio has 230-240bhp with straight forward mods but to make the next jump there only seems to be there with 260 and hopefully above with there latest engine.

 

[McGherkin]

FLOL at CS calling bulls**t because it has more than 220bhp, you need to look further than the pages of CS to see proper engines, 230 bhp is just scratching the surface.

This lol.

 

[MG cup]

Yeah I'm not sure about the ancillaries tbh mark but I'm led to believe the geomatery and construction are the same throught all f4r motors no?

Maxi engines are just a ported and polished 197/200 engine with choice rods, pistons, cams and solid lifters right mark?

 

[ALD]

Pure Motorsport engine is what you want. Everyone with a proper comp clio has 230-240bhp with straight forward mods but to make the next jump there only seems to be there with 260 and hopefully above with there latest engine.

A break down of the engine spec would be nice

 

[hissingsid]

Thanks for the replys. The thoughts were I have looked into it a little and it seams on the 172 setup I need to have a block brace for the high power output, the throttle bodies I like to use AT, they are 45mm on the 197 instead of 42mm on the 172. Clutch and flywheel are bigger, Crank is lighter and is also made to take a lot more power. Not sure where the rear engine mount looks like and weather it will be the same as mine (I run a Sadev st-75 ).
I have 2 engines at the moment which are both around 225 bhp and 230 bhp that I would rather not break up, so if I'm starting a fresh high spec engine which base engine has the most potential.
Water pump etc then would not be a problem as I would prefer to keep the head and block together, unless someone knows of a reason not.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah I'm not sure about the ancillaries tbh mark but I'm led to believe the geomatery and construction are the same throught all f4r motors no?

Maxi engines are just a ported and polished 197/200 engine with choice rods, pistons, cams and solid lifters right mark?

Yes mate bore and stroke are the same on them (as in 1*2, 197 or meg225) but the block casting is different on the 197 to a 172. It's stuff like the bell housing bolt pattern.

Yeah maxi engines were high comp pistons, heat treated original rods, lumpy cams and a fancy exhaust manifold. Head wasn't ported and ran normal hyd lifters. Made 230hp. It's the maxi evo that's the kiddie. It runs all the trick bits but retains the original inlet and single throttle. They made 250hp.

 

[EVOgone]

Maxi engine very expensive valve train thats were the $$$ is.

Pure MS route looking at 8k rev limit seems to be the way to go and keep costs down by just running off the shelf solid lifters. Sandy Brown knows what hes doing so him developing this engine is a real positive step.

 

[Chip-mk1]

It's stuff like the bell housing bolt pattern.

Is the casting in anyway superior, or just drilled differently?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Maxi engine very expensive valve train thats were the $$$ is.

Pure MS route looking at 8k rev limit seems to be the way to go and keep costs down by just running off the shelf solid lifters. Sandy Brown knows what hes doing so him developing this engine is a real positive step.

And 12-15k

 

[Fred@BTM]

Thanks for the replys. The thoughts were I have looked into it a little and it seams on the 172 setup I need to have a block brace for the high power output, the throttle bodies I like to use AT

Load of rubbish, Sodemo's lumps based on the F4R700 series (172/182) don't use a block brace and neither do ANY of the guys in Spain, Italy or France! Simply not needed as its not an issue

As for using AT bodies, i wouldn't, stick to Jenvey's proper kit - way better IMO

 

[pure-motorsport]

And 12-15k

TBC!!

 

[NorthloopCup]

Is the casting in anyway superior, or just drilled differently?

The block is different in terms of the water pump is in a similar spot to to where it is on the xe, but as for if the block is stronger to avoid flexing issues I couldn't say chip. The block I had, had no main cap tops so it was disposed of.

 

[EVOgone]

TBC!!

Was talking about Renault Maxi engine im sure the PM engine is half that ;-)

 

[Chri5]

FLOL at CS calling bulls**t because it has more than 220bhp, you need to look further than the pages of CS to see proper engines, 230 bhp is just scratching the surface.

This ^^^

 

[hissingsid]

Had some info about Magane turbo engine, and have been told that the exhaust ports/valves are are smaller, is this right?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Had some info about Magane turbo engine, and have been told that the exhaust ports/valves are are smaller, is this right?

Exhaust ports on the majority of f4r's is small mate other than the ph1 172 from what I've seen. They all have the same size valves though in the 2ltr range.

 

[ALD]

Exhaust ports on the majority of f4r's is small mate other than the ph1 172 from what I've seen. They all have the same size valves though in the 2ltr range.

Ports can be enlarged to match the size of the ph1 172 heads anyway. I know its not many DIYer will have the gear to do this.

 

[marinemackay2003]

that's the size comparison for you ph 2 exhaust port with ph 1 gasket

 

[andy-reid]

Yes mate bore and stroke are the same on them (as in 1*2, 197 or meg225) but the block casting is different on the 197 to a 172. It's stuff like the bell housing bolt pattern.

Yeah maxi engines were high comp pistons, heat treated original rods, lumpy cams and a fancy exhaust manifold. Head wasn't ported and ran normal hyd lifters. Made 230hp. It's the maxi evo that's the kiddie. It runs all the trick bits but retains the original inlet and single throttle. They made 250hp.

I would avoid the 225 block as the bellhousing is huge on them a jc5 box will not bolt to it the cam followers are weak on them all as i am keep being told ! i have a cut race lump being rebuilt at the min as i seized mine in reggie when the sump oil escaped through a large hole

 

[The Fatty]

FLOL at CS calling bulls**t because it has more than 220bhp, you need to look further than the pages of CS to see proper engines, 230 bhp is just scratching the surface.

it wasn't because of the power figure; it was because his OP seemed liked he was a novice yet quoted he already had 230bhp+ engines in his second post. Now its clear he is not a novice at all.

 

[ALD]

that's the size comparison for you ph 2 exhaust port with ph 1 gasket

Now i was told that it was only a little bit bigger but thats massive

 

[Dan@SJM]

They don't quite match the gasket, but they aren't far off.

 

[ALD]

A Ph1 head ports are as large all the way back to the valves

 

[bozothenutter]

Wont that mean there is a tradeoff ?
Ie airvolume for airspeed?

 

[NorthloopCup]

I would avoid the 225 block as the bellhousing is huge on them a jc5 box will not bolt to it the cam followers are weak on them all as i am keep being told ! i have a cut race lump being rebuilt at the min as i seized mine in reggie when the sump oil escaped through a large hole

Correct, you would have to re-drill the block to suit the jc5 pattern. Cam followers are an issue over 8k or if the engine spends majority of its time in the upper rpm (you say yours is a race engine so I imagine this to be the case). I've heard of them breaking and also flipping off the tappets/valve. Only way to cure this is the catcams roller rocker setup, but that's £££££'s unfortunately.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Wont that mean there is a tradeoff ?
Ie airvolume for airspeed?

It can be, but not in all circumstances. Shape can be more important than size also.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Wont that mean there is a tradeoff ?
Ie airvolume for airspeed?

Yes, I believe its for emissions at low rpm reasons the ports went smaller on the later cars.


The 197 inlets are huge but the exhausts are still small.

 

[EVOgone]

My F7R megane head has inlets modified to the 1*2 gasket so are the quite big but exhaust ports are small, seems to be a similar theme on reanualt engines.