Gen90 DIY mapping/calibration thread

stevieturbo · Jul 27, 2023

Or I guess you could seek help/teaching from the supplier of the kit if that was an option.

Familiarity with the system, can make even an unnecessarily difficult system like this usable.

adir · Jul 27, 2023

But can I maintain a working oem cluster if going other ecus?

Brigsy · Jul 27, 2023

Oem cluster works fine with ecumaster black.

stevieturbo · Jul 27, 2023

adir said:
But can I maintain a working oem cluster if going other ecus?

If you know the CAN data required to be sent and it can be sorted in the correct format, then yes

JonHarro · Jul 28, 2023

I'm in the same boat, and couldn't work out which spare input would accept a full 0-5v Signal from an LC-2 External Wideband controller with an LSU 4.9, and even with the pinouts and other information on here, which list used analog inputs, but not spare ones, or what voltage capabilities any of the spare or non spare inputs have. It appears the inputs used by default for the OEM narrowband sensors won't accept 0-5v, only the 0-1.5v used by a narrowband sensor, which has left me with no idea what spare input I can use, without risking turning the ECU into a doorstop.

What I do know is that the Gen90 has an inbuilt controller for an LSU 4.2, and I think I commented somewhere above previously about what I have worked out about what pins go where, but I haven't got to the stage of actually doing it yet, (As I'm saving for the rest of the bits I need for the ITB conversion, like the VW rad, coil relocation bracket, catch cans, injectors etc etc)

Over the course of a couple of months I tried to purchase a full, perpetual license for the GWv4 from GEMS, as I wanted to have a play with the 'automapping' features (Automatic Lambda log mapping) as Tuners and Dyno's are a bit more spread out in my part of the world than most of you (I'm in Australia, and not in Sydney or Melbourne, so finding someone who has actually tuned a reno is a little harder for me than most of you ;-) )
The best option they gave me after several months of back and forth was they had never used the automapping and weren't confident it would work (even though it's baked into the newer firmwares) and could offer me a month eval version of GWv4 for 40 pounds. I haven't taken up that option as I'm not at that stage yet. KTEC basically don't appear to be forthcoming with information unless the ECU was bought directly from them, not second hand, and even then, they'd prefer everything is done in-house by them, which is more than a little hard for someone across the other side of the world.

However. With all this screw around I'm considering the ECU Master black. There seems to be a whole lot more doco, training material and knowledge out there, and I found two places that do a conversion loom that makes this look as appealing as the Gen90 first did in regards to Plug and Play, having the OEM dash work etc. https://rrrshop.co.uk/products/renault-clio-178-182-plug-an-dplay-adaptor or https://www.northamptonmotorsport.c...-172-ecumaster-pnp-ecu-kit-engine-management/

So without trying to turn this into an ECUMaster thread, but has anyone gone down this route instead of a Gen90? Is it an easier prospect to DIY? Because I am starting to have serious buyers remorse I blew my cash on a Gen90. The KTEC website made them sound like the ducks nuts...

JonHarro · Jul 28, 2023

stevieturbo said:
Or I guess you could seek help/teaching from the supplier of the kit if that was an option.

Familiarity with the system, can make even an unnecessarily difficult system like this usable.

If anyone HAS had any luck with either GEMs or KTEC getting anything but dribs and drabs of info, I'd love to know. Andy from Phoenix has by far been the most useful so far, as I believe he used to work at KTEC when the ECU and their ITB kit was originally being developed, and was able to at least supply me the x84 firmware and GIN file, which I think is the latest, (or at least one of the newest ones.)

JonHarro · Jul 28, 2023

One thing to note is there is an unknown number (Well I don;t know the number) of Gen90 ECU's out there that DO NOT have the CJ110 Chip used for the LSU 4.2 controller, as for an amount of time during the global chop shortage it was not included by GEMS to the spot on the PCB marked U25. I have a photo somewhere I can dig out for those not familiar with identifying components on Printed Circuit Boards (PCB's)

bikemanpt · Jul 28, 2023

Forget the gen90 if you can. Everything thing is cryptic.
No help or hints in every custom fields.
No cruise control.
No 2 stage control.
No customization what so ever.
No dongle can read data from obd socket, because no known protocol is used or if in fact, anything cames out of there.
ESP is weird and no traction control
Even the freaking shift light doesn’t work.
If by chance, something broked, a sensor for example, no way of checking what is wrong.

In the end it will manage the engine flawlessly, with proper map, boosted or not.

But just that, and evolution don’t stop , so it’s sad to see other options in the market that are way cooler and friendly overall, and allowing all kinds of must loved tweaks.

Today I’m certain that I would prefer to have to deal with wiring harnesses than to avoid that hassle and getting just the minimum olympics for a management computer.

stevieturbo · Jul 28, 2023

JonHarro said:
I'm in the same boat, and couldn't work out which spare input would accept a full 0-5v Signal from an LC-2 External Wideband controller with an LSU 4.9, and even with the pinouts and other information on here, which list used analog inputs, but not spare ones, or what voltage capabilities any of the spare or non spare inputs have. It appears the inputs used by default for the OEM narrowband sensors won't accept 0-5v, only the 0-1.5v used by a narrowband sensor, which has left me with no idea what spare input I can use, without risking turning the ECU into a doorstop.

What I do know is that the Gen90 has an inbuilt controller for an LSU 4.2, and I think I commented somewhere above previously about what I have worked out about what pins go where, but I haven't got to the stage of actually doing it yet, (As I'm saving for the rest of the bits I need for the ITB conversion, like the VW rad, coil relocation bracket, catch cans, injectors etc etc)

Over the course of a couple of months I tried to purchase a full, perpetual license for the GWv4 from GEMS, as I wanted to have a play with the 'automapping' features (Automatic Lambda log mapping) as Tuners and Dyno's are a bit more spread out in my part of the world than most of you (I'm in Australia, and not in Sydney or Melbourne, so finding someone who has actually tuned a reno is a little harder for me than most of you ;-) )
The best option they gave me after several months of back and forth was they had never used the automapping and weren't confident it would work (even though it's baked into the newer firmwares) and could offer me a month eval version of GWv4 for 40 pounds. I haven't taken up that option as I'm not at that stage yet. KTEC basically don't appear to be forthcoming with information unless the ECU was bought directly from them, not second hand, and even then, they'd prefer everything is done in-house by them, which is more than a little hard for someone across the other side of the world.

However. With all this screw around I'm considering the ECU Master black. There seems to be a whole lot more doco, training material and knowledge out there, and I found two places that do a conversion loom that makes this look as appealing as the Gen90 first did in regards to Plug and Play, having the OEM dash work etc. https://rrrshop.co.uk/products/renault-clio-178-182-plug-an-dplay-adaptor or https://www.northamptonmotorsport.c...-172-ecumaster-pnp-ecu-kit-engine-management/

So without trying to turn this into an ECUMaster thread, but has anyone gone down this route instead of a Gen90? Is it an easier prospect to DIY? Because I am starting to have serious buyers remorse I blew my cash on a Gen90. The KTEC website made them sound like the ducks nuts...

It's fairly generic across all ecu's that any analogue input is 0-5v, and likewise any external lambda controller will output a 0-5v signal. So moot point, any spare input should work fine. If you can figure out how to tie that input to a channel in the ecu to be usable, with their comparator and other nonsense terminology, with no channels actually able to be named and viewed properly.

Via datalogging, just view it and make changes yourself, so called self tuning etc will often have you going round in circles anyway, as even those systems need setup correctly in order to work well

There are definitely some options in the software for launch control, which you can open in both KTec and GWV4, although I haven't a clue how to make use of them

I can open the calibrations ok with either KTec or GWV4, although I can't remember what happened if I tried to connect to the ecu with the GEMS version as it's been nearly a year since I touched it

bikemanpt · Jul 28, 2023

v4 wont write to ecu without gems licence, but it opens the cal file created on ktec’s v3

bikemanpt · Jul 28, 2023

Also, those kind of options like launch control and alike, are just frustrating, because you see they are there, but not even a clue on how to make them work.

stevieturbo · Jul 28, 2023

bikemanpt said:
Also, those kind of options like launch control and alike, are just frustrating, because you see they are there, but not even a clue on how to make them work.

Oh I agree, GEMS and anything derived from it is s**t. the hardware may be capable, but their software and user interface is just terrible. It's even worse than Link, that's how bad it is.

Brigsy · Jul 28, 2023

@JonHarro i run ecumaster black on my clio trophy. Works fine including oem dash works well, but no asr or cruise. Cruise would need to be wired differently but i didnt bother, same as asr ive binned it. Abs talks to ecu via can.

stevieturbo · Jul 28, 2023

Very few aftermarket ecu's will offer cruise control, for a variety of safety reasons.

bikemanpt · Jul 29, 2023

stevieturbo said:
Very few aftermarket ecu's will offer cruise control, for a variety of safety reasons.

Have to give them that, It’s a system that simply can not fail. The amount of work to certify that must be obscene, so it’s better to not make it available at all.

But it’s just an exemple, almost all the customizable settings could be written in chinese it would make no difference. I assume a very experienced tunner with knowledge in low level code of ecus can handle it, but it’s out of reach for everyone else.

JonHarro · Jul 29, 2023

stevieturbo said:
It's fairly generic across all ecu's that any analogue input is 0-5v, and likewise any external lambda controller will output a 0-5v signal. So moot point, any spare input should work fine. ...

I agree that's how it should be, however unless I've missed something, all the pinout information on here (I've collected every single bit of info I can find on CS and anywhere else on the Internet) give you all the details of the pins used (by default), and none of the pin numbers for any spare analogue inputs. If this is incorrect and I missed something cam someone please let me know. I was thinking A7 must be capable, as that appears to be the input used in the software when using the inbuilt CJ110 LSU 4.2 Controller, but is that a 'normal' analogue input I can borrow, or does that connect straight to the CJ110 chip, making it not a candidate I can use with an external WB controller? I'm assuming there actually are spare analogue inputs - it's a guessing game, and I don't like playing guessing games with (relatively) expensive electronics, as that can get expensive very fast, hence me thinking that perhaps I am just setting myself up for further frustration if I continue down the Gen90 road.
Like most others on here my Clio isn't likely to be set and forget, I'm always going to be changing things and trying to make it better, and I'm just not convinced I've taken the correct path here to accomplish that without swearing at my ECU choice every damn time I want to do anything. And yes, it would continually annoy me if I can't use the OBDII port to overlay tacho and whatever else I want onto Track Vids, so thanks to @bikemanpt for pointing that out too.
But then the more I complain about it on here, the less likely someone else is to want to buy it off me either so I can get an ECU master instead... &*^%!

stevieturbo · Jul 29, 2023

JonHarro said:
I agree that's how it should be, however unless I've missed something, all the pinout information on here (I've collected every single bit of info I can find on CS and anywhere else on the Internet) give you all the details of the pins used (by default), and none of the pin numbers for any spare analogue inputs. If this is incorrect and I missed something cam someone please let me know. I was thinking A7 must be capable, as that appears to be the input used in the software when using the inbuilt CJ110 LSU 4.2 Controller, but is that a 'normal' analogue input I can borrow, or does that connect straight to the CJ110 chip, making it not a candidate I can use with an external WB controller? I'm assuming there actually are spare analogue inputs - it's a guessing game, and I don't like playing guessing games with (relatively) expensive electronics, as that can get expensive very fast, hence me thinking that perhaps I am just setting myself up for further frustration if I continue down the Gen90 road.
Like most others on here my Clio isn't likely to be set and forget, I'm always going to be changing things and trying to make it better, and I'm just not convinced I've taken the correct path here to accomplish that without swearing at my ECU choice every damn time I want to do anything. And yes, it would continually annoy me if I can't use the OBDII port to overlay tacho and whatever else I want onto Track Vids, so thanks to @bikemanpt for pointing that out too.
But then the more I complain about it on here, the less likely someone else is to want to buy it off me either so I can get an ECU master instead... &*^%!

Not sure what you are trying to do by connecting directly to some chip ?

If the controller outputs an analogue 0-5v signal, any analogue input would be more than happy to receive it. That is the basis of any ecu, regardless of make.

I would imagine the easiest input to use ( assuming there is one, I have not looked ) would be for the normal narrowband input. Keeps things simple that way. Lambda1 ?

Obviously you will need to sort any sensor calibrations so the voltages received, can be seen in a sensible format.

stevieturbo · Jul 29, 2023

I have these pinouts on my laptop. Both different formats, I have not looked at them in detail. But they do show there are analogue inputs ( for NB lambda ) and which pins etc, so it should....should be straightforward to use one of them for your wideband input, and re-configure the ecu to suit. The latter part being the more difficult.
I do have another file labelled "wideband aspect"....no idea what the term aspect means, GEMS do use bonkers terminology. So it may be some sort of config setup help ?

JonHarro · Jul 30, 2023

stevieturbo said:
Not sure what you are trying to do by connecting directly to some chip ?

If the controller outputs an analogue 0-5v signal, any analogue input would be more than happy to receive it. That is the basis of any ecu, regardless of make.

I would imagine the easiest input to use ( assuming there is one, I have not looked ) would be for the normal narrowband input. Keeps things simple that way. Lambda1 ?

Obviously you will need to sort any sensor calibrations so the voltages received, can be seen in a sensible format.

You'd really think that wouldn't you. That's also what I thought. Until I started trying to make it actually work. It shouldn't be quick and easy... It is the basis on any ECU. I totally agree.

The CJ110 Chip is the inbuilt Wideband Controller, as I was crapping on about few posts back. To use that option, you use input 7/A7 in the software, and set OX FB WIdeband to ON and input appropriate values into the FB table to suit the voltages a wideband would give back, and boom everything works, or thats what I'm trying to do, and when I pull my finger out I'll get it done.

Why do I know this and why would I do this? Well I probably should have prefaced the whole thing by saying I have already tried what you have suggested above using the standard lambda 1 and 2 inputs, 11 and 12, to connect the output from my external innovate LC-2 wide-band controller, (that uses the newer LSU 4.9 Lambda sensor). No matter whether wideband was turned on or off in the software, the scope would max out when receiving 1.5v or more. Using the software that came with the external wieband controller, I was able to confirm by seeing what is was outputting, and what was showing in the ECU side. It was maxing out the puts as soon as thety recieved more than 1.5v. I spent about an hour on a teamviewer call with Andy from Phoenix who again couldn't work how to change the config or scale ECU to expect 0-5v instead of the 0-1.5v used by the narrowband sensors, or confirm it was even possible. He and then gave me all the above info about the inbuilt controller.

So if anyone does have an external controller working correctly, I'd love to see the config of that in your cal file please.

stevieturbo · Jul 30, 2023

Ahh, so you're saying the ecu itself has an onboard wideband controller ? Surely if that's the case, it's just a matter of connecting the sensor to the relevant pins and configuring the ecu ? ( yes we know, configuring anything in GEMS is a nightmare )
True enough in the wiring schedule that does seem mentioned, although no reference to what pins it might use, or perhaps there is another connector on the board itself ?

Have you tried contacting GEMS themselves ? Surely they can recommend a tuner for their system you could maybe get in touch with ?

I know Steve Simpson who was mainly a Subaru guy years ago uses a lot of their stuff and would offer tuning services. He switched to GEMS based ecu's he sold from the previous Alcatek, to be sold under the Simtek brand. But Simtek is just GEMS too.

The Alcatek was actually a very good ecu too, but support from the software guy/manufacturer was a complete nightmare, which drove everyone away from that platform. Which was a real pity, as it was very keenly priced, very capable, and the software was pretty good. Although annoying that softwares were both software and dongle locked to the supplying dealer. Although I think many found workarounds to some of that later on. I just gave up on them.

I see Simtek lists as Area52 now for their contact, not sure if that's were Steve bases himself now, or if he's passed things on.

Contact Us | Simtek Electronic Performance

Contact the Simtek Team.

www.simtek.co.uk

I'll maybe have a look at the software later to see if I can see anything for those inputs. But I'm not much use with it myself. Are there any FB groups or similar for the GEMS ?
A quick google has a forum ? probably not used much though

GEMS - General Engine Management Systems Ltd - Forum -Index page

www.gems.co.uk

stevieturbo · Jul 30, 2023

This is some of their calibration "aspects" as they call them.

A couple mention the LSU, maybe there might be some info there that is useful. Seemingly "aspects" are sections of a calibration you can import to your ecu.

Calibration Aspects |

gems.co.uk

JonHarro · Jul 30, 2023

OK so yes it has an onboard wideband controller, but that only works with an LSU 4.2, which from what I have read is the previous generation Wide-Band Sensor, as opposed to the LSU 4.9 that the was included the wideband external controller kit I had that I actually purchased before this ECU. The sensors aren't interchangable, so In the interests of using what I had already bought, and using the newest generation o2 sensor, this is what I tried that first. I have since bought the LSU 4.2 Sensor, and have worked out how to do it after all these headaches.

I only piped up about my experiences trying to use other spare inputs (and their challenges) as @adir was asking last week how this could be accomplished. While I haven't solved that I hope at least he's better informed on what doesn't work. @scruffydubber mentioned using a 'spare' input for an external WB though, so I'd love to know what they are have configured.

JonHarro · Jul 30, 2023

stevieturbo said:
A quick google has a forum ? probably not used much though

GEMS - General Engine Management Systems Ltd - Forum -Index page

www.gems.co.uk

Myself and a number of other people have tried contacting GEMS themselves either privately or via the forum, and just get directed back to KTEC Unfortunately. https://www.gems.co.uk/gemsforum/viewtopic.php?t=719

stevieturbo said:
This is some of their calibration "aspects" as they call them.

A couple mention the LSU, maybe there might be some info there that is useful. Seemingly "aspects" are sections of a calibration you can import to your ecu.

Calibration Aspects |

gems.co.uk

Yes, that's correct, an aspect is an exportable part of a cal file you that contains a subset of configuration items. These are what I used to assist me in working out the correct settings for the internal controller. Unfortunately it hasn't helped me with the other bits. Maybe I'll hit up SImtek and see if I they may have more idea than anyone else I've spoken to. Or maybe I should stop torturing myself and just spend the money on something on a better option...

For what it's worth, these are the available options for O2 sensors

Some settings are pretty self explanatory, some not so much... What does OX FB P Do? What does OX FB Gain do? While GWv4 has help files that explain operation of the software, It would be great to have something that details all the ECU specific options in detail. You'd think that setting OX FB WIdeband to yes would set the inputs to wideband scale, rather than narrowband scale, but it just seems to activate the onboard controller instead, which as mentioned, previously, send it's output back to the ECU input 7 (A7).

stevieturbo · Jul 31, 2023

I would imagine they relate to PID settings, Progressive, integer, derivative type settings.

P might be the initial amount of correction, and Gain an overall multiplier or sensitivity.

Even in there you can see the hi/lo fail settings are a 5v range, so it must be happy to accept a 0-5v input. Although no idea where you configure what the 0-5v calibration actually is.
It's probably in some obscure table somewhere, under a completely different name knowing GEMS

And if you're setting it to WB, no. WB's direct operate in a totally different way, although as such should then require less user calibration, because it would be fixed.

Any external analogue input, the 0-5v could relate to absolutely any scaling.

incy-spider · Aug 4, 2023

Guys drop Andy at phoenix automotive technologies an email, or phone… he knows the ECU like the back of his hand

JonHarro · Aug 7, 2023

I did try. Spent a little while on a couple of occasions with him helping using Teamviewer. We got to the point he was emailed guys who knew at GEMS, and then gave me the info about the on-broad controller for the previous version sensor. He was great, and I put some money in his kitty for his time, but in the end it felt like I was taking up too much of his time with questions over email, when he's busy with other stuff. If I wasn't on the other side of the world and I'd happily rock up to his workshop and pick his brain though - it's just painful over email, which is why I wanted actual doco I didn't have to drag from somebodies head at one question per day.

Oh well. It is what is is... Coz it can't be what it aint.

incy-spider · Aug 9, 2023

JonHarro said:
I did try. Spent a little while on a couple of occasions with him helping using Teamviewer. We got to the point he was emailed guys who knew at GEMS, and then gave me the info about the on-broad controller for the previous version sensor. He was great, and I put some money in his kitty for his time, but in the end it felt like I was taking up too much of his time with questions over email, when he's busy with other stuff. If I wasn't on the other side of the world and I'd happily rock up to his workshop and pick his brain though - it's just painful over email, which is why I wanted actual doco I didn't have to drag from somebodies head at one question per day.

Oh well. It is what is is... Coz it can't be what it aint.

I know what you mean! There must be some serious documentation somewhere, would love a instruction manual myself, a massive amount of time and effort must have gone into getting the Gen90 developed and onto the market.. it can’t have just landed at Ktec with a note that said good f**king luck! 😂😂

stevieturbo · Aug 9, 2023

there are manuals for others cars on the GEMS site...I guess they will share the same generalities so might yield some info

eg

https://www.gems.co.uk/assets/Media/downloads/manuals/Subaru%20N14/Subaru%20N14%20ECU%20Manual.pdf

colesy · Sep 7, 2023

What value would you guys put on a used gen90? It was bought new by me in April ‘22 and was fitted/mapped by Ktec for an ED low boost setup.

JonHarro · Sep 19, 2023

colesy said:
What value would you guys put on a used gen90? It was bought new by me in April ‘22 and was fitted/mapped by Ktec for an ED low boost setup.

Not sure, but in the interest's of the thread and everyone else, feel free to share your calibration. I don't believe we have any cals for boosted stuff in our 'library' yet. :-D

Out of interest how did you find it in comparison to the standard ECU with the PIggyback Module for the ED low boost setup?

marc1330 · Sep 19, 2023

Bit of a basic random one guys , but I have the ktec set-up for a number of years with 421's and lately she is a bit boggy pulling away. Any ideas ITB's etc balanced throttle all set etc

colesy · Sep 19, 2023

JonHarro said:
Not sure, but in the interest's of the thread and everyone else, feel free to share your calibration. I don't believe we have any cals for boosted stuff in our 'library' yet. :-D

Out of interest how did you find it in comparison to the standard ECU with the PIggyback Module for the ED low boost setup?

Haha im not smart enough to know that, just Ktec sort it out. Although it’ll soon be corrected at efi.

My car had an AEM piggyback before, didn’t notice too much of a difference to be honest.

kurai · May 29, 2024

Does anyone has a clue about the "full throttle shift" function?
I am considering fitting a sequential gearbox so it would be a useful option. Where do I connect the cut off switch? On the pinout pdf I don't see pins for that.. am I missing something?

ozclio03 · Nov 28, 2024

Hi Guys,
Couple of questions from Australia, I have a Gen90 and Ktec ITB kit I am moving from one clio to another, I'm assuming I will need a retune correct?
I also have a set of 197 cams im getting fitted with th 7 degree timing set - will the car still be drivable after this? at least to the tuner?
We dont have 2 many choices on tuners in Melbourne and the one I have arranged informed me that the last clio with ITBs and the Gen 90 he tuned he could not get transient state / steady state something with the accelerator pump he could not work out what settings needed to be adjusted as the settings he was assuming needed to adjusted didnt seem to do anything, does any of that make sense? If so can any share some tips I can share with the tuner?
Thanks David

bikemanpt · Dec 2, 2024

@incy-spider
Earlier on this thread you told you had lots of maps, can I ask for the ones that run 630cc injectors?

I'm having issues at around 2600-2700rpm with low to medium load, where the engine starts lumping quite aggressively. At that point I have to release the throttle or push it a bit further, and it goes smooth again. My tuner is unable to fix the issue, despite the good job he made overall.

Gen90 DIY mapping/calibration thread

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