172/182 or CTR

[Brazo]

Quote: Originally posted by evilowl on 08 November 2004

Quote: Originally posted by leorjennings on 08 November 2004


For the reason, she wanted the Honda, well i persueded her!!

And I like having the two best Hot hatches in the UK today.

And another thing, this is the point They are not the same thing, they are two seperate animals, so so so different, and I love them in different ways. Put it this way if i could have the Hondas gearbox, interior, seats with the Clios engine low rev performance and the Hondas VTEC and the Clios specification I would be very rich, beacuse you would all want one...

Cheers



Lee

The low rev performance can be changed completely on the CTR with the simple addition of the KPro ECU. My VTEC point is now 4300rpm and lasts all the way to the 8600rpm rev limiter. Transforms the car and makes it very much more drivable (ie mid range) without ragging the nuts of it.

I paid £738 quid inc VAT and fitting for mine, its fully mapable and you also get datalogging via a USB connection and launch control which is a bonus for those that do TLGPs or have regular trips to the strip. My launch control is set to 4000, so as soon as I launch its in VTEC

A simple Hondata reflash costs less but comes without most of the best features..and the VTEC window is different at 5200rpm to 8600rpm.

So how much does it cost again to fix all the issues?

 

[Rich-D]

Ive had both a 172 Cup and CTR, both of which are superb cars...

The Civic is faster once up to speed, the engine is superb, the gearbox is a peach, build quaility is much better, etc... but the Clio was more fun to drive IMO and until you reach triple figure speeds no quicker in the real world, in fact the Clio was probably that bit quicker in the lower gears!

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by TB11 on 07 November 2004


For an unbiast opinion, you need to speak to Rich D who has had both cars (a cup and a CTR).

You rang...

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by brazo on 08 November 2004


CTRs are great but with one on every street corner, not my cup of tea.

And Clios are rare?!

 

[jonnyboy]

lets face it they are all ten a penny these days. I would personally go for a 2nd hand 172 mk2 if I was in the market for a car right now, they are cheaper to buy (because some mug like me who bought one new has taken the big hit on the depreciation) Youll loose less in £ if you buy the honda but if you look at 2nd hand values they are a lot more expensive for what bar build quality issues is a very similar spec car. If I was spending CTR money on a car to be quite honest Id want more performance.

I would go as far as to say that a 2nd hand 172 mk or cup is the best car you can spend your money on today if you want a properly fast car.

 

[Brazo]

Quote: Originally posted by Rich-D on 08 November 2004

Quote: Originally posted by brazo on 08 November 2004


CTRs are great but with one on every street corner, not my cup of tea.

And Clios are rare?!

cups are

bear in mind they made 2500 cups and are easily onto the 50k CTR!

 

[dk]

i see more cups than mkII 172s! I would hardly say they are rare, probably nearly as many cups as mkII 172s (not imported ones).

 

[Brazo]

Maybe you do but fact is ther were far more mk2 172s than the cup version!

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by brazo on 08 November 2004

Maybe you do but fact is ther were far more mk2 172s than the cup version!

do you know this for fact?

I remember seeing a figure which surprised me greatly, it was comparing the number of 172 cups to MkII 172 RUK cars (so not imported) and I remember the figure being very close!

Maybe someone who knows could help me out please?

[Edited by dave182 on 08 November 2004 at 10:55pm]

maybe the figure i saw was for the period the cup was for sale, it outsold the 172, cant quite remember but im sure someone will.

 

[Lagerlout]

Hmm, think you might be onto a loser here Dave mate. There are a LOT of Mk2s 172s on the road. I would hazard a guess that the Mk1 172 could be the rarest of the 172 incarnations. Incidently, the model of Clio which has sold the fewest numbers of the recent range is the 1.6 16v. Which makes sense cos its not fast and its not frugal, so theres not much point either way!!

Back on topic, whichever car you chose you wont be disapointed. IMHO, from someone who doesnt claim to be the stig, the CTR handling isnt as bad as some of the proffesional pub drivers on here might have you believe (not pointed at anyone in particular). Sure if you drive everywhere on the limit you may find it a little numb, but for your every day joe (like me) I thought it had bags of grip, very little body roll and was very composed. It was just the character of the engine I couldnt live with. Go and test drive one and make up your own mind.

 

[cupdriver]

I am in a similar situation. I am fast approaching end of ownership on my Cup, Need to get ride of it while its still worth something. I was looking at an STI but have discovered I can’t afford one. I have now got it down to two options, the new 182 Cup probably in that funny orange colour or a CTR.

My Cup is great, I like a car to be raw and focused, not to fussed about aircon and all that stuff, just open the window. I need the 182 Cup to be hard-edged and focused, I’m assuming the setup of the car chassis wise will be very similar or possible better. It’s the 0-60 time nearly half a second off the 172 Cup, I realize in the real world it means bugger all but its something you tell your mates down the pub.

I have limited experience in a CTR, Had one for an hour sometime ago. To be honest I can’t remember it clearly enough to judge it. Although I do remember it feeling very light and twitchy up front when going very fast. Because of the difference in cost I would like there to be a significant difference in performance. For that money you’re nearly getting into forced induction money.

I need to test drive them both but I need a full day with no salesman governing the speed or way that I drive the car.



I realise I am going to get a biased opinion here so I will also post in the Civic Forum to get a balance.

Is there anyone on here who has got the 182 Cup (not 182 with Cup pack) that could offer any opinions?



Cheers


[Edited by cupdriver on 09 November 2004 at 11:20am]

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by brazo on 08 November 2004

CTRs are great but with one on every street corner, not my cup of tea.

And Clios are rare?!

cups are

bear in mind they made 2500 cups and are easily onto the 50k CTR!

The Cup was just a limited run 172 variant though, as the 30AE is for the CTR

I know there are a lot more CTRs out there though, which is a testament to their success.



If were talking rare cars, Ive currently got a Phase 1 306 GTi-6 and they only made about 1500 of these, then my 306 Rallye was even rarer as there were less than 500 in the UK!

 

[Rich-D]

Quote: Originally posted by lagerlout1 on 08 November 2004


Back on topic, whichever car you chose you wont be disapointed. IMHO, from someone who doesnt claim to be the stig, the CTR handling isnt as bad as some of the proffesional pub drivers on here might have you believe (not pointed at anyone in particular). Sure if you drive everywhere on the limit you may find it a little numb, but for your every day joe (like me) I thought it had bags of grip, very little body roll and was very composed. It was just the character of the engine I couldnt live with. Go and test drive one and make up your own mind.

The handling on the CTR is good... loads of grip, hardly any roll, really does go round corners well, I was surprised first time I drove one!

Its the EPS (electric power steering) thats the problem here, it basically ruins the steering feel of the car, you get hardly any feedback and if you push it hard you dont really know whats going on. For normal driving its not a problem, and even driving quick its ok once you get used to it, but this was the only issue I had with the CTR and the one thing Id change.

This is now highlighted even more by the 306 GTi-6 I am currently driving, which handles like a dream and really is a much more enjoyable car to throw about!

 

[10 Pence Short]

A few comments about the CTR by people are a little off the mark.

1. "Too light on the front end affecting traction"

Not true, the actual balance is more towards 65/35 weight over the front/rear, hence the light rear end if not driven with respect, and the nose heavy front end when it comes to tight, wet, er, corners.

2. i-VTEC is not VTEC.

Yes it is. The difference is quite simple. The old VTEC engines employed a 3rd cam lobe at higher revs to force a more aggressive mixture. This is so the car can run at lower bhp at low revs, meaning better mpg. VTEC is actually an economy feature rather than a power one.

i-VTEC saw the introduction of a system similar to the Renault et al systems of variable valve timing in addition to VTEC, which allows the engine to deliver more precise changes to torque and economy, especially when outside of high cam.

3. Engine Failures

There is no specific issue with the K20 in any incarnations. Whilst some people suffer failures, which can happen to any marque and be down to any number of reasons, I happily did 125,000 hard driven miles in my CTR with no engine problems whatsoever.

The main weak areas of the car are the paint finishes, which can be atrocious, and steering system that is both poor on feel (not accuracy or speed, though) and reliability.

4. Resale values

Whilst the actualy amount you lose between the CTR and the Clio may seem fairly similar, what you should actually be comparing is the percentage of loss that you have over say, a 3 year period- not the cash amount. Have no doubt that the Civic has a better residual than the Clio, which in one way is good as it makes the Clio an absolute bargain secondhand.

5. Fuel Economy

Both cars are surprisingly good for economy. The Clio because its pretty light and the engine is an efficient design, the Civic also due to pretty good aerodynamics, relatively low weight and the VTEC system. Under 5900 revs the Civic is only achieving around 160bhp.

Having done around 1500 miles a week in my Civic, 60mph on the motorway equated to 45mpg- that is not a lie or false claim. I would imagine at similar speeds the Clio could achieve something similar.



Its easy to use urban myths and jump on bandwagons, but the point is both cars are very good, and have their pluses and minuses. The Civic is a better all round vehicle, is more practical, will hold its value better, will be easier to sell, is better built and is likely to be more reliable over 3 years. The Clio has more equipment, is a more fun car to drive and is cheaper to buy (though not necessarily cheaper to run).

 

[cupsportmad]

The decision is horrible though if you have the money CTR or 182, would give me nightmares. Its like the R1, cbr600rr, zxr636, gsx600r, all good bikes but just wouldnt know which one id choose.

 

[st33ly]

With regards to Tenpence shorts comments.

There is no specific issue with the K20 in any incarnations. Whilst some people suffer failures, which can happen to any marque and be down to any number of reasons, I happily did 125,000 hard driven miles in my CTR with no engine problems whatsoever.

I previously worked for Honda and on a few occasions their was vehicles in the workshop in due to some sort of engine failure. The sales comment is with regards to the V-TEC system on its own. In particular the CRV which shares a similar engine platform to the CTR K20 engine! But as regards to their engine relliability then it is still second to none!

The main weak areas of the car are the paint finishes, which can be atrocious, and steering system that is both poor on feel (not accuracy or speed, though) and reliability.



The main weakness is the electro hydrualic power steering. Which you quite rightly pointed out is very poor on feel + I found that on ocassions I could catch the system out. + Paint finsh on bumpers/ Plastics to be very poor. In somecases you could see the primer used.

But apart from that everything else mentioned is pretty much spot on!

Regards

 

[simoted]

Id go for the ctr, but Ill agree its thirsty, but you cannot beat the VTEC