197 Cams in a ph1 172

[Michael Woodford MST]

I have read a couple of posts on here asking if it could be done and what the gains were, but no one really seemed to know anything about it.

With my Ph1 172 needing a cambelt and a spare set of 197 cams lying around, I decided to have a play and see what I could come up with.

Firstly I took the car to Surrey Rolling Road for an outsider’s non bias power graph. The old girl pulled a respectable 167.6 bhp

The cams are a direct fit into the 172 head and the 172 De-phaser bolts straight onto the 197 inlet cam, so as for fitment, they are a perfect match.

At first I timed the cams in on the standard Renault points. The car started and ran perfectly. Although it had lost torque and power from just about everywhere until 6800 where it gained over standard. So although the car had more peak power, it was in actual fact, much slower.

I started playing around and dialled the cams in at different point to see if I could make an improvement. With a very rough map this is what I got today.

(Red line= Standard cams, Blue line= 197 cams)

The small dip in torque and power between 3500rpm-4750rpm is mapping related and with a bit more time spent, I’m sure the dip can be removed. I didn't want to spend hours on the map just encase the cams still needed some work on where they were best dialled in.

I’m quite happy with that. 8.2Bhp gain from a set of cams that can be had on eBay for £60-80. As I say, with some more time on the map, I’m sure you could remove the dip and even get maybe 2-3 more peak bhp for it.

I’m now going to fit a 182 exhaust manifold and an RS2 and see what sort of power can be gained. The 197 cams hold onto the power much better in the top end of the rev range so I thing they would suit the RS2 perfectly.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Always wondered what the increases might be. they used to run them in the formula Renault f4r single seaters. How much did you dial the cams (inlets I assume) in?

 

[Pedro19]

Awesome stuff!

Always good to have many different options. 438's are looking fairly expensive apposed to these

 

[Bluebeard]

I really wish there were more people like you on the forum! Willing to give anything a go.

 

[Final Maxim]

possibly the best mod you can do engine wise for £/bhp??

good stuff

 

[tom172cup]

I really wish there were more people like you on the forum! Willing to give anything a go.

This times a million

 

[welshname]

possibly the best mod you can do engine wise for £/bhp??

good stuff

Not sure. You've got to include (for most that can't do it themselves) Fitting, Belts and mapping. That said it'll still come in cheaper than anything else still.

 

[davo172]

Well done that man :approve: great to see something new ! after this i dont think you will be the last to do this, way cheaper than some of the "cams " options available and much better results from what ive seen of some of the other available options available on here !

 

[Nick172Cup]

Not thought of using the GroupN timing tool also on both the standard inlet/RS2 to see differences?

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

The cam timing was massively sensitive with these cams. Sadly it's not just a case of bang it on GrpN setting. I
Did try it but it didn't give great results.

 

[Nick172Cup]

Ah right that's fair, very good that you tried that also! Needs people like yourself Mike to play with all these little types of options that seemingly other tuners aren't interested in doing!

 

[batesey]

Would these work with the RS2 inlet? if the belts needing changing on a RS2'd car surely they'd give good gains without spending big money on more aggrressive cams that dont work well with it

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Tbh I don't know why they haven't tried. They are a slightly more aggressive cams in the 197 so it HAS to work. It's only getting the cam timing correct that's the ball ache. But now I know what figures are working well it would be quite a cheap upgrade. I have made myself a tool at the setting they are at now so even people who wanted to fit them, themselves could do so.

I think with an RS2 the results are going to be awesome. I'm currently doing it on my ph1 and Chip-Mk1's ph2 so we have 2 cars to compare.

 

[batesey]

Tbh I don't know why they haven't tried. They are a slightly more aggressive cams in the 197 so it HAS to work. It's only getting the cam timing correct that's the ball ache. But now I know what figures are working well it would be quite a cheap upgrade. I have made myself a tool at the setting they are at now so even people who wanted to fit them, themselves could do so.

I think with an RS2 the results are going to be awesome. I'm currently doing it on my ph1 and Chip-Mk1's ph2 so we have 2 cars to compare.

Awesome keep us posted matey, fair play for trying things like this out

 

[Pedro19]

If you need a 182, just ask

 

[TimR26]

Great work Mike

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

If anything I need a 172 lol. Both the cars I'm playing with will have 182 exhaust manifold.

But this graph was done on a 172 exhaust manifold.

 

[neil a]

If I wasnt so far away you could of had mine, cams and bodies are on my shopping list.

 

[Ol’ Tarby]

Price of 197 cams have just quadrupled lol

Top work tho!

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Lucky I brought 8 set when they were worthless.

 

[Pedro19]

Lucky I brought 8 set when they were worthless.

:lol: Now I know who to go to when I want cambelt done and 197 cams

 

[BrianB]

how do you think they'd respond on a turbo'd f4r?

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

What sort of spec turbo'd F4R?

 

[BrianB]

gt28rs, r26r injectors through a gen90, only running low boost till i can free up some money to go forged so ideally they would go in then

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Can't say I've ever tried. I'll have to chuck a set in my forged turbo Clio when it's finished a let you know. I'm not sure its worth the effort TBH. You can make the same power gains just turning the boost up by 1-2psi lol.

What I'm not sure about is if it will smooth the power delivery out and give you a better spread of power. They maybe worth doing from that side of things.

Give me a couple of months and I'll have an answer for you

 

[BrianB]

no problem, if you need another guinny pig i would be happy to volunteer mine

 

[Bobby.]

Brilliant stuff this. Just wondering how much do you charge for mapping cammed clios on std ecu?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Awesome keep us posted matey, fair play for trying things like this out

Yesterday i rebuilt the bottom end of the engine in my mrs rs2 car with new rings etc and fitted some arp rod bolts and my mrs has just rebuilt the head with some super tech valves so it should be happy revving to 7800rpm now. This afternoon I fitted the head back up to it with some 197 cams and as I type this mike has popped round with the cam tools and is installing a new belt and setting the timing where it worked well on his car.
Sadly I'm in the middle of doing a few other jobs on it as well so probably will be at least a couple weeks till it gets to the rollers if not a couple months as I will need to map it too once its back on the road and I'm mega busy with work and trackdays etc at the moment.

Was 169 iirc on matched inlets and exhaust etc when we first got it so I don't think it will set the world alight with power figures as its not one of those freaky big power ones to start with but so long as we see a 10% gain or so in total I guess I will be happy.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Brilliant stuff this. Just wondering how much do you charge for mapping cammed clios on std ecu?

I think mike normally charges about 300 ish, dot think he is allowed to answer as he isn't a trader on here at the moment. Lol.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

I think mike normally charges about 300 ish, dot think he is allowed to answer as he isn't a trader on here at the moment. Lol.

No comment as Chip says. But chips post is accurate

 

[Chip-mk1]

Tonight I started running in the engine I built on Saturday and I must say it feels great on the 197 cams so far with the rs2.
Will probably finish off running it in going to CSS as I'm working away from home from tomorrow till Saturday so won't be near the car till then.

 

[Pedro19]

Update Chip! Do it!

MW also says you'll be coming Trax with Britishmods. See you on the stand

 

[Chip-mk1]

Hello mate, I do have a bit of an update, although not any BHP figures yet I am afraid.

Now that the engine is run in and Ive been able to load it up fully up the rev range I can really see the difference from the cams.

AFR on the old cams was around 12.8 all through the top end of the rev range , and now on the new cams its roughly the same upto 5000rpm and then from 5500-7500 it fluctuates between 13.5 and 13.8 with a brief flash of 14.0 in the mid 6s

So it would appear from that I have gained an increase in airflow of between 5-8% for the top end load sites, with around 5% at peak power RPM so I would expect it to gain (after I remap it back to around the 12.8 mark) around 5% more power based on that, although its not always as straight forward as getting exactly the same percentage more power as you get change in AFR, sometimes it will be a little more and sometimes a little less.

Hopefully will get that map at least mostly done before Trax, but doubt I will actually have rolling road figures at that point for comparison as annoyingly our before figures were from surrey rolling road and its a bit of a ballache for us to go there just to get figures as its a 300 mile+ round trip for us, so basically a day off work etc, which is a pain.


For reference though we had 169bhp on matched inlets and ktec stealth and we had a couple of runs with part finished maps on the RS2 but I never had a chance to go back once it was finalised sadly, the final map was a merge of the other two though and peak figures were 179 and 182 on those two runs, so I believe the peak figure would have stayed at the 182 mark, I could draw a very good approximation of the whole curve from looking at the 2 graphs based on which bits of each map were in the final map, but its entirely upto anyone else if they want to take that as accurate or not, sadly the belt failed before I got to go back for a definitive final run, so there is nothing I can do about that as obviously when the belt went it meant I jumped straight to the final spec I was aiming for as I wasnt about to build it up again on the old cams just for the sake of a power run.


So I am kind of expecting based on the AFR differences I have seen for it to be around high 180s or even maybe touch 190bhp now , but things dont always work like that in terms of the exact correlation between AFR and power after breathing changes.

As a sidenote; there is now a 182 manifold on it as well though which from a comparison point of view is bad as obviously it would have been better to stick with the same manifold for a comparison run but it just suited me time wise for me to fit it when I was rebuilding the engine anyway rather than have to map it again on the 172 manifold then change to the 182 and map it all over again rolling roading it both times just to provide figures for other people, sadly I dont have that much free time.

 

[mr.pink87]

All the hassle for 190ish bhp? Should have put on some 438s with magic induction kit. Or a set of bodies.

 

[Chip-mk1]

All the hassle for 190ish bhp? Should have put on some 438s with magic induction kit. Or a set of bodies.

More to life than a brief peak power figure to chat about downtime pub, like a good useable rev range.
438 and standard inlet is horrible low down compared to rs2.
Bodies would mean no Aircon.

The brief for my mrs car has always been to make it better for the trackdays it does while not compromising road manners at all. Neither of your options do that.

We have several other cars that are much faster anyway so have never wanted this as yet another no compromise track car as we don't need another of those. It's a daily first and occasional trackday car second.

Plus it's not been 'hassle' it's been fun. We enjoy improving it.

 

[Russ_16v]

If I can find a set of 197 cams id happily use them, cost per bhp they are a good upgrade it seems.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If I can find a set of 197 cams id happily use them, cost per bhp they are a good upgrade it seems.

Better made than most aftermarket too to be fair, look at all the issues people have with catcams etc. at least if they've done 40k miles and still look mint when you buy some secondhand for ten percent of the cost of catcams you know they are spot on. Lol.

 

[Russ_16v]

The cams out in the engine I chucked in look like the spare ones I have on my workbench which have done 55k lol

If you happen to stumble apon any Chip, you know where I am! x

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

All the hassle for 190ish bhp? Should have put on some 438s with magic induction kit. Or a set of bodies.

Where's the hassle?

It's already proved it gets 8hp gain on a shoddy map.

Remember the cams can be had for as little as £50 and it an afternoon to fit and £250 to map.

What else can you get for £300 that gives that sort of gain?

 

[Laine_16v]

How people say these are a viable choice to proper cams? Are people actually looking at the graph, you'd get to work quicker in the morning if you had a s**t before you left compared to having a set of those cams fitted! I'd bat an eye lid to these if they made 160ft'lb + as any cammed clio should.