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197 diffuser cause drag ?



  MKIII 138
just wondering i know theress upto 70kg of downforce caused by this diffuser but as a result i heard (although it could be bull) the top speed is only 134 now and actually only manages about 131mph, my question is top end accelaration i.e 90mph+ effected by the drag downforce ?
 
The drag from it will be minimal.

IMO not having it won't make any real difference for 99.99% of people. Infact removing it might make for a more draggy shape.

The big isue is the fact the gearbox isn't desinged for high speed work.
 
  Clio 172 mk2
edde said:
The drag from it will be minimal.

IMO not having it won't make any real difference for 99.99% of people. Infact removing it might make for a more draggy shape.

The big isue is the fact the gearbox isn't desinged for high speed work.

Yep..gearbox definately the issue with the 197 and not the diffuser when it comes to top speed
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
Sorry, but those people suggesting you can get lift without increasing drag are talking perpetual motion type voodoo science. As the old saying goes there aint no such thing as a free lunch - someone has to pay for it. You can't get something for nothing. If it generates lift it will necessarily increase drag.

There are some tricks with diffusers to make them more or less efficient, but if there's lift there has to be some cost in increaseed drag.

However the diffuser isn't the primary reason the 197s top speed is down on earlier models. That's because the higher vehicle weight but the same engine size, and therefore torque, meant they had to lower the gearing to get back in-gear acceptable acceleration, plus the new model is wider and has more drag.
 
  Elise/VX220/R26
I'm sure it must be worth it anyway as putting out a performance hatch with no big shiney exhaust pipes is quite a brave move for a manufacturer these days
 

MarkCup

ClioSport Club Member
How does a diffuser work then?

I thought it was because it smooths and speeds up the airflow exit under the car at the back, which in turn reduces lift?

So it reduces "drag" and "lift"?
 
Fast moving air has a lower pressure. A wing works by forcing the air on it's top face to move faster than the air on it's bottom face. Thus the air on the top of the wing has a lower pressure than the air on the bottom of the wing. The higher pressure pushes the wing up.

Traditional spoliers are upside down wings (essentially) so they push the car down into the tarmac, but at a cost of increased aerodynamic drag. The idea of a diffuser is that it can provide downforce with a much smaller penalty in drag.

The reason the 197 'only' does c.130mph is because it's overall gearing has been carefully engineered to put some distance between itself and the Megane 225. Nothing to do with the marketing gimmick diffuser, cleverly marketed as a non-marketing gimmick. It's no more complicated nor simple than that IMO.
 
MarkCup said:
I thought it was because it smooths and speeds up the airflow exit under the car at the back, which in turn reduces lift?

I must admit I always thought they were about reducing lift rather than actually providing downforce. But then I read about this alleged downforce at "very high speeds" in the Clio 197??
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
MarkCup said:
How does a diffuser work then?

I thought it was because it smooths and speeds up the airflow exit under the car at the back, which in turn reduces lift?

So it reduces "drag" and "lift"?

Yes, right, if you want to be technically correct, what a diffuser produces is "negative" lift. Ie, downforce. But there isn't any point in "positive" lift in a car, for the same reason there isn't any point in producing "negative" lift in a plane, so everyone just calls it "lift" and "l/d ratios" (lift to drag ratios) and leaves the sign of the number to everyone's common sense when they're talking about aerodynamic devices. Except when they are doing the arithmetic. The sign certainly matters then.

The roof of a Clio would naturally produce positive lift. The rear of the car would press down less hard on the rear wheels the higher the speed. The negative lift that a diffuser would produce would reduce that rear end and reduce "nervouseness" and increase grip on the road. Only Renault knows whether the diffuser reduces the lift from a nett positive lift figure to a nett negative figure.

Contrary to what another contributor said a diffuser does NOT work courtesy of the bernoulli principle of higher air speed generating lower pressure. That's the way a wing on a plane works. The lower surface is flat, and the upper surface is curved, so the air has to accelerate over the upper surface, producing a lower pressure on the top surface of the wing that the lower, generating a nett lift.

Wings on cars usually take little advantage of the bernoulli principle. They simply force the air striking them to change direction upwards, which produces an equal downward force on the wing. That way of doing it has a much poorer lift to drag ratio - ie the amount of drag produced to get a given amount of lift - but it allows much more lift (yes, negative lift) to be produced with a smaller size and mass of wing. You simply can't fit as big a wing on a car as a plane.

Most of the (negative) lift a car wing produces is on the inner surface. The "front" surface. The one the air strikes straight on. But a small amount also gets generated as air flows under the wing, and as the wing curves upwards the air tries to follow it upwards too, and that pulls the wing down.

A diffuser under the rear of a car is like that lower surface of a wing. Air that has flowed under the car reaches the diffuser, which is an up-curving surface, and gets pulled upwards, and that pulls down the diffuser and the back of the car. It only works if the airflow under the car is clean, not turbulent, which is very hard to achieve without a flat underbody. And the trick with diffusers is making the air follow the curved surface of the diffuser upwards. If you don't have much of an upward curve you don't get much (negative) lift. If you have too much of a curve the air just separates from the surface rather than following it, and you get no lift and lots of turbulence and drag. One of the biggest aerodynamic secrets of F1 is how to make diffusers generate downforce at low speeds for the corners without getting airflow separation and drag-producing turbulence at the higher speeds down the straights.
 
  Megane Mk4
Roy Munson said:
PS. Who thinks the Cup will also have a spoiler?

Shouldn't need one really if it's got the diffuser imo.
I don't know why the 197 cup track cars have them tbh, would've thought it would drag the car more.
 
Andi-b said:
Shouldn't need one really if it's got the diffuser imo.
I don't know why the 197 cup track cars have them tbh, would've thought it would drag the car more.
Yep Cupm racers have spoliers.
I think its quite funny Renault are trying to move away from the big spolier thing with the 197 and prove diffusers are better iddea an less associated with the Max Power (no insult intended to readers) scene hence the market customers might almost become older and hence me less lkely to have warently claims (younger drivers always drive them harder so cost more im warenty so less profit for Renauult). However they then went put a spoiler on there race car version.
 
  Leon Cupra 300
the gearbox on 197 crap too, nice change but.... you are always throwing gears at it like non stop, in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th area changing gear a lot more than my cup because the ratios are so close together.. but...... you must loose time changing gear this often?
 
philmots said:
the gearbox on 197 crap too, nice change but.... you are always throwing gears at it like non stop, in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th area changing gear a lot more than my cup because the ratios are so close together.. but...... you must loose time changing gear this often?
Just adjust the driving style more IMO.
 
  Leon Cupra 300
fair point but if driving both cars flat out im changin gear a lot more in the 197,, if i changed gear less in the 197 id be goin nowhere near as quick hmmmmm.
 
  MKIII 138
GordonD you know your onions thanks for taking the time to write that i found it interesting.


what i should have said was is the accelaration at higher speeds i.e 90+mph reduced because the car is being forced down into the road at the rear allowing it to be more stable and pinned to the road but as a result meaning the airflow is pulling the car back a bit hence slower accelaration the higher speed it goes ?
 
philmots said:
fair point but if driving both cars flat out im changin gear a lot more in the 197,, if i changed gear less in the 197 id be goin nowhere near as quick hmmmmm.
Should be quicker in the 197 as you'r a better spread of gearing so more acceleration out of bends.
 
Gordon I stand corrected.

So essentially the diffuser is a more efficient way of getting downforce on the rear of the car than a spoiler. Or am I still talking b****cks?!
 
  Elise/VX220/R26
There can be no doubt that the diffuser is functional. As I said earlier in the post there NO WAY renault would dare put out a hot hatch without big shiney pipes on it unless there was a damn good dynamics related reason for it. It doesnt have a spoiler either does it? Two essentials when your trying to market a hot hatch. Dont forget that away from the elitist world of internet forums the average guy on the street wont care about the functionality of a diffuser unless it can be demonstrated that it works and thats why he hasnt got a spoiler or chrome pipes to make his hot hatch stand out from the "normal" clio range. I wouldnt underestimate the gamble that renault have made on this diffuser. It makes the 197 not really fit in with the megane range, and potentially puts a lot of people off by the omission of the spoiler and pipes. It might seem insignificant but I personally think its quite a big step for Renault to have made as they need to educate the man on the street about it as well as demostrate that it actually works!
 
FFS sake the diffuser does it's job in the rear sucking the rear end down. What's the peoples idea of higher top end. Look at a Caterham, it will loose any higher powered hot hatch yet have a top speed of 115. This is the BASIC version.

Some seem to have the basic princlples sorted. FFS outright speed between varing points of speed/gearing/distance are so childish, yet so many here seem to feel that is a cars ability.

I AGREE WITH THE NEW PROPOSED DRIVER STANDARDS FOR YOUNG MEN. how can 33% of deaths be generated by 5% of drivers aged under 23 ?????,

I love to run and love another
 
jonnyboy said:
there NO WAY renault would dare put out a hot hatch without big shiney pipes on it unless there was a damn good dynamics related reason for it. It doesnt have a spoiler either does it? Two essentials when your trying to market a hot hatch. Dont forget that away from the elitist world of internet forums the average guy on the street wont care about the functionality of a diffuser unless it can be demonstrated that it works and thats why he hasnt got a spoiler or chrome pipes to make his hot hatch stand out from the "normal" clio range. I wouldnt underestimate the gamble that renault have made on this diffuser. It makes the 197 not really fit in with the megane range, and potentially puts a lot of people off by the omission of the spoiler and pipes. It might seem insignificant but I personally think its quite a big step for Renault to have made as they need to educate the man on the street about it as well as demostrate that it actually works!
Renault are in the business of selling cars there F1 achievments speak for themselves in the sports car world if they say a diffuser works then adverage joe will accept they know what there on about. Renault have on many occasions said the 172/182 kick was due ot VVT and it isn't. Who's going to try take Renault to court if ther wrong? Infact who cares IMO? Its all talk there arn't many owners on here with them.

I have no doubt it does but the drag coefficient of it should be quite good. it won't be till someone who realy can drive takes it off will know how good it is.

blaze said:
I AGREE WITH THE NEW PROPOSED DRIVER STANDARDS FOR YOUNG MEN. how can 33% of deaths be generated by 5% of drivers aged under 23 ?????,
I'm not convinced of this personally you cna teach anyone to pass a test doens't mean to say there are going to drive like that. If the higher risk drivers arn't drivin inside the speed limit/as they would on a driving test whats the point changing the test?
 
blaze said:
I AGREE WITH THE NEW PROPOSED DRIVER STANDARDS FOR YOUNG MEN. how can 33% of deaths be generated by 5% of drivers aged under 23 ?????,

Very good. Whats that got to do with diffuser's? :S
 
  MKIII 138
me too very random. i happen to think high speed is fine its just the things that get in the way that kill you so if you can apply vision and foresight to these things then your safe, if not then you dont drive fast its simple really. a slower driver pays less attention, i took my shoes off in a 20mph zone the other day lol as they were hurting my feet i wouldnt do that at 60mph would i !

-----------------------

anyways 90+ mph does the diffuser slow accelaration compared to not having one on ?
 
meggerman said:
anyways 90+ mph does the diffuser slow accelaration compared to not having one on ?
It depends how bad not having it is. Just removing it isn't fair since the'd be a gap which would be draggy anyway.

My bet is it don't make much drag compaired with an plastic cover but it does make drag just laike not having it would.
 
  MKIII 138
now im confused lol, though the downforce was drag and drag would reduce top end accelaration perhaps but its sounds very complex so il live in ignorance lol :D
 
meggerman said:
now im confused lol, though the downforce was drag and drag would reduce top end accelaration perhaps but its sounds very complex so il live in ignorance lol :D
I'm just saying the drag caused in the gaining of downforce would be minimal verses not having a difuser and having some normal back end. Also the drag won' make any real effect on top sped you need HP and correct gearing to get top end.
 
  MKIII 138
^ well ok, but im more interested in acelaration at 90+ mph ok so the top speed may or maynot be effected but what about accelaration caused from the drag the pulling down of the car ?? surley this would have the effect of hanging an anchor out the back somewhat ?
 
meggerman said:
^ well ok, but im more interested in acelaration at 90+ mph ok so the top speed may or maynot be effected but what about accelaration caused from the drag the pulling down of the car ?? surley this would have the effect of hanging an anchor out the back somewhat ?
A small anchor yes maybe. The loss will be minimal but I'm sure the first people to remove it will say it makes a huge difference.
 
  172 ph1
So does a diffuser, that is creating 50Kg downforce at a particular speed, but not creating any extra drag (compared to a identical car without diffuser), have the same effect as sticking 50Kg of shopping in the boot?

I guess so, as it has effectively made the car 50Kg heavier - although it is making my head hurt thinking about it.
 
No offence but it doesnt really matter, i dont think the diffuser would increase drag at all in fact im sure its there to prevent it.

You can all keep giving out the science lessons lol!
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
Baldylocks said:
Gordon I stand corrected.

So essentially the diffuser is a more efficient way of getting downforce on the rear of the car than a spoiler. Or am I still talking b****cks?!

Good point Baldylocks. You are exactly right in your conclusion. Given the choice of a V6-style spoiler sticking up at the trailing edge of the roof, or a mk 3 style diffuser, you'd choose the diffuser. Which may be why Renault did. Both the spoiler and the diffuser would generate downforce, but the diffuser would do it with less drag. The diffuser would be harder to engineer to work properly though because it needs clean airflow under the car, which is usually thought to require a flat underbody.
 
  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
meggerman said:
GordonD you know your onions thanks for taking the time to write that i found it interesting.


what i should have said was is the accelaration at higher speeds i.e 90+mph reduced because the car is being forced down into the road at the rear allowing it to be more stable and pinned to the road but as a result meaning the airflow is pulling the car back a bit hence slower accelaration the higher speed it goes ?

There is always a price to pay for downforce. You can't get it for free. It costs you in terms of some drag. But have you seen in racing, especially US type high speed sedan car classes on superspeedways, where they say the car behind is getting sucked along by the car ahead. Cars aren't shaped like airplanes with fuselages/bodies that smoothly taper back to a point. They are cut off. That creates a low pressure area behind the car that generates drag. You feel that effect if you're following a truck or bus on the motorway. A spoiler sticking up on the trailing edge of the roof increases that low pressure. But a diffuser under the rear bumper bar would tend to suck air up into that large low pressure, reducing it slightly, reducing the low pressure, and reducing the drag.

We can know all the effects, but without all Renault's aerodynamic data we don't know which numbers are bigger than the others. We know the diffuser would generate drag. We also know it would reduce drag by sucking air up into that low pressure area. But only Renault knows whether the amount it increases drag is bigger or smaller than the amount it decreases drag. We don't know what the nett effect is.

What is pretty certain is that all these aerodynamic factors are smaller in effect than the increase in size and weight in the Clio Sport 197. Its not slower in top speed because it does or doesn't have a diffuser. Its slower because its a physically bigger car, and because they had to shorten the gearing because its still only a 2 litre engine producing 2 litres of torque that has to drag a substantially heavier car.
 


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