197 itb kit

[deltav]

just thought i would make it known that a 197 throttle body kit will be available sometime in the new year. gdi or k-tec will be the people to talk to when the time comes.

on our development car we have seen mid range gains of 27bhp and 33ftlb.

don't really know prices yet as this is the only one in existence so there are still details to finalize and all the numbers need to be ran. but here are some pics so you can see what the kit will look like.

 

[Adey.]

looking very good man, bet it drives loads better than with that janky fly by wire crap.

 

[Fletcher]

Good stuff :approve:

 

[deltav]

looking very good man, bet it drives loads better than with that janky fly by wire crap.

good god yes.. night and day to the standard car.

 

[dunlop]

would the 1*2 benefit from those style intakes?

 

[deltav]

would the 1*2 benefit from those style intakes?

yes and no, not directly as the 1*2 has enough room under the bonnet to get some fairly decent length airhorns in there coming straight out the front of the car, the 197 does not hence the up and over design. only reason to do it on a 1*2 that i can see is so you could run a decent airbox as oppose to air socks. but its probably not worth it for the small gain over the existing 1*2 itb kits.

main reason for runing the air box on 197 is noise as with the tb's facing back towards the cabin they are very very loud. to loud. but we can pick up a couple more hp running the box anyway so its kinda a bonus. problem with doing one on a 1*2 is getting hold of an airbox that would fit. this one has been made specially for the 197.

 

[Coby.]

Looks Lovely

 

[The Hoff]

Slightly disappointed with the quoted power increase, is it quite a job wringing more power from the block?

 

[BioHzrd]

Love the look of that....kinda wish i had a 197 now so i could have it !....make one for the 1.6 :rasp:

 

[deltav]

probably because these are realistic gains..not overinflated pie in the sky forum figures.

this kit has had over 50 hours dyno time trying endless combination's and variations so its not like we have just taken our best guess and thrown a set of body's on. the limiting factor is that these are fitted to a completely standard engine with standard cams. so it is what it is. but im sure someone on here will tell us they are getting more gains from a remap and a maxogen filter.

 

[Tucker]

deltav are cams in the pipeline for the 197?

i know it's pointless chasing figures but what sort of output would you expect with a set of it itbs and wild cams?

 

[SBV116]

Loving your honesty!

 

[The Hoff]

probably because these are realistic gains..not overinflated pie in the sky forum figures.

this kit has had over 50 hours dyno time trying endless combination's and variations so its not like we have just taken our best guess and thrown a set of body's on. the limiting factor is that these are fitted to a completely standard engine with standard cams. so it is what it is. but im sure someone on here will tell us they are getting more gains from a remap and a maxogen filter.

Nothing quite like being over defensive is there?

 

[deltav]

deltav are cams in the pipeline for the 197?

i know it's pointless chasing figures but what sort of output would you expect with a set of it itbs and wild cams?

not sure on cams im afraid as im just the development engineer so am kinda out of touch on what is being made by the cam manufactures. best bet would be to speak to andy at gdi as he will have a much better idea than me. if they are available then im sure we will be trying them in conjuction with itb's very soon in the new year though so we will know more then once we have fitted and tested some.

 

[deltav]

Nothing quite like being over defensive is there?

not being defensive at all just stating the obvious.

 

[Fred@BTM]

cams have been out for a while

good to finally see a tidy looking install!

 

[deltav]

thanks we do try our hardest on the detail.

 

[Christopher]

That's a very tidy conversion!

Realistic figures too, great work.

 

[Gaz_]

Loving your honesty!

Kev we could do this?

 

[Craig]

^^ you know you want them gaz

 

[nth]

promising... i like it

 

[nth]

also how much will this roughly cost?

 

[Andy GDI]

prices will be out Jan time.

the difference in the way the car drives is huge.

We have made full use of the variable cam control and extracted everything the engine has to offer is all throttle positions and rev ranges.

rev limit is 7500rpm and the car pulls cleanly from 1000 rpm even in 6th gear

torque is linear with a very usable increase from 4000-6500 rpm (where it will get driven the most)

more details will follow in Jan

 

[leeds_182]

Looking forward to seeing how much this bit of kit is.

 

[stan*]

Slightly disappointed with the quoted power increase, is it quite a job wringing more power from the block?

what sort of figures would you expect on a std engine??

MIDRANGE TORQUE is what makes a quick AND usable car.

Gaining huge peak POWER figures are excellent for impressing people, but when it comes to making a fast car from corner to corner, they mean s**t.

 

[Revman]

what sort of figures would you expect on a std engine??

MIDRANGE TORQUE is what makes a quick AND usable car.

Gaining huge peak POWER figures are excellent for impressing people, but when it comes to making a fast car from corner to corner, they mean s**t.

Absolutely correct. Peak bhp figures are almost pointless as they do not show the range they cover. What matters is what the torque figures are across what rev range. The improvements found with this setup are really pleasing and have transformed the car from a bit of an overweight softy to something with some go and lightning fast throttle response.

I'm sure at some point in the near future we will fit a set of cams and see what difference they make. But for now we'll enjoy what we have.

Thanks for all the kind comments. This kit has been an absolute ball-ache to develop so we're glad you like it. Thank you especially to the owner of the car who has been unbelievably patient over the last few months!

 

[The Hoff]

To be honest, I thought the car would be running on some aftermarket internals. The fact it isn't makes a big difference to my expectations, however you'll notice a '?' on the end of my sentence.

So can we assume a car 100% stock to have the ITB's fitted and be 25bhp up, even without any breather modifications?

On that basis a car with an exhaust/decat/cams should be making 40bhp peak?

 

[Revman]

To be honest, I thought the car would be running on some aftermarket internals. The fact it isn't makes a big difference to my expectations, however you'll notice a '?' on the end of my sentence.

So can we assume a car 100% stock to have the ITB's fitted and be 25bhp up, even without any breather modifications?

On that basis a car with an exhaust/decat/cams should be making 40bhp peak?

Believe me, the increase is huge when you drive the car. Torque is up 20% over a large rev range, that's equivalent to having an equivalent 2.4L engine.

I would expect the gains from the cams to be substantial as the inlet cam is infinitely variable over approximately 45 degrees which means we can probably run a more aggressive cam profile than we could on a 172/182 and still retain good road manners. Can't quote figures as we haven't done it yet and engines often have a mind of their own as to what they will do!

For those who are interested in the technical bits we used our 710 Series ECU as the 600 Series that is used on the 172/182 conversions can only swing the cams to 2 positions, not infinite placement. When we initially tried that it completely ruined the torque curve...

 

[the jeffster]

Is this kit now available and has anyone fitted it yet?

 

[theduck]

The customer pulled out iirc

 

[mbarnes]

thats what i heard too. shame, as i quite fancied it

 

[Andy GDI]

If anyone is interested please get in touch as we are looking to put this into production

 

[ben_p]

How can he pull out if the Kit is made?

Plus they have the kit now anyways no? lol

 

[scott1205]

looks good

 

[Andy GDI]

there is 1 prototype which was very successful.

we have done a few ECU kits for the race cars as well.

 

[kevo66]

there is 1 prototype which was very successful.

we have done a few ECU kits for the race cars as well.

What do you need from the interested party short of the car?? I.e how much ££

 

[Icarus]

there is 1 prototype which was very successful.

we have done a few ECU kits for the race cars as well.

Was that for one of the Dunlop Sport Maxx chaps Andy?

Cheers
M

 

[Gasket]

what sort of figures would you expect on a std engine??

MIDRANGE TORQUE is what makes a quick AND usable car.

Gaining huge peak POWER figures are excellent for impressing people, but when it comes to making a fast car from corner to corner, they mean s**t.

Really? What an extreme view.

Mid range torque provides traction but if you want to go fast from corner to corner, you need to be operating in a high power band.

 

[stan*]

Midrange torque provides traction? Please explain.


For maximum acceleration, you want to be operating in the range of rpm/s which offer maximum engine torque, and therefore maximum tractive effort, over/for the longest period. Maximum tractive effort=maximum acceleration. Increased power (with rpm) allows this tractive effort to be excercised, but as engine torque drops off with increased engine speed, ultimately there becomes a point of diminishing return for tractive effort, and also acceleration.

So to summarise, you will gain the main bulk of acceleration through the engine speeds which offer most torque. The "length" of period of the this acceleration will be determined by the trend of power delivery around this time/area. However past the point where torque drops off, acceleration rates are lower.

 

[Gasket]

Midrange torque provides traction? Please explain.


For maximum acceleration, you want to be operating in the range of rpm/s which offer maximum engine torque, and therefore maximum tractive effort, over/for the longest period. Maximum tractive effort=maximum acceleration. Increased power (with rpm) allows this tractive effort to be excercised, but as engine torque drops off with increased engine speed, ultimately there becomes a point of diminishing return for tractive effort, and also acceleration.

So to summarise, you will gain the main bulk of acceleration through the engine speeds which offer most torque. The "length" of period of the this acceleration will be determined by the trend of power delivery around this time/area. However past the point where torque drops off, acceleration rates are lower.

Mid range torque does provide ‘tractive effort’ but you are ignoring gearing Stan. Maximum tractive effort does not always equate to maximum acceleration because you also have a selection of ratios to choose from.

If you chose to operate beyond peak torque in the regime where peak power leads peak torque, with the correct gearing, you achieve increased acceleration. It is not as clear cut a you are trying to make out and if you want to achieve maximum acceleration its engine power that determines it - not torque.