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197 itb kit



  2005 Nissan Navara
All torque provides tractive effort, not just midrange.
I didnt mention gearing specifically because in the instance of 99.9% road car users who chose to modify their engines, the ratios remain the same.
However maximum tractive effort gives maximum acceleration. Hence you accelerate at a higher rate in 1st gear than you do in 5th. Obviously this reduces with reduction in overall gear ratio, and as road speed increases with a higher numerical gear so too does aerodynamic loses meaning net acceleration is reduced. Fact still remians, with higher tractive effort comes higher acln.

Of course, its a very wide discussion and not at all clearcut, we could go into drag, discharge coefficients, frontal area, vehicle mass and the like; but again these are typically fixed, so you have to look at it subjectively to the case in hand.

Eg flexibility to this, compare a kit-car engine characteristics to Saloon. Typically with a kitcar you will configure the engine to yield a higher power figure and loose the favour of torque lower down the rpm range. But thats balancing the effect of torque against vehicle mass. But the saloon car will require alot more torque delivered by the engine to make it reach the same rate acln as the light kit car.

As for power determining acl statement, well sorry thats just wrong.

F=Ma I think someone once said.

If you want to think of examples beyond the age of Isaac Newton, then compare a diesel powered car to a petrol powered equivalent.
You will have surely noticed the diesel car accelerates alot "harder" in each gear. Agreed the petrol car will accelerate for "longer" (but not as hard over that period), but again this comes back to my post above, where power curve increases where toque drops off.

I guess you should get onto the guys at Prodrive and tell them they have got it wrong with their WRC cars. They DONT want a massive torque figure over an almost impossibly large rpm window.
 
  Mk2 172
To be honest, I thought the car would be running on some aftermarket internals. The fact it isn't makes a big difference to my expectations, however you'll notice a '?' on the end of my sentence.

So can we assume a car 100% stock to have the ITB's fitted and be 25bhp up, even without any breather modifications?

On that basis a car with an exhaust/decat/cams should be making 40bhp peak?

Please be quiet!!! Your annoying me!
 
  Clio
All torque provides tractive effort, not just midrange.
I didnt mention gearing specifically because in the instance of 99.9% road car users who chose to modify their engines, the ratios remain the same.
However maximum tractive effort gives maximum acceleration. Hence you accelerate at a higher rate in 1st gear than you do in 5th. Obviously this reduces with reduction in overall gear ratio, and as road speed increases with a higher numerical gear so too does aerodynamic loses meaning net acceleration is reduced. Fact still remians, with higher tractive effort comes higher acln.

Of course, its a very wide discussion and not at all clearcut, we could go into drag, discharge coefficients, frontal area, vehicle mass and the like; but again these are typically fixed, so you have to look at it subjectively to the case in hand.

Eg flexibility to this, compare a kit-car engine characteristics to Saloon. Typically with a kitcar you will configure the engine to yield a higher power figure and loose the favour of torque lower down the rpm range. But thats balancing the effect of torque against vehicle mass. But the saloon car will require alot more torque delivered by the engine to make it reach the same rate acln as the light kit car.

As for power determining acl statement, well sorry thats just wrong.

F=Ma I think someone once said.

If you want to think of examples beyond the age of Isaac Newton, then compare a diesel powered car to a petrol powered equivalent.
You will have surely noticed the diesel car accelerates alot "harder" in each gear. Agreed the petrol car will accelerate for "longer" (but not as hard over that period), but again this comes back to my post above, where power curve increases where toque drops off.

I guess you should get onto the guys at Prodrive and tell them they have got it wrong with their WRC cars. They DONT want a massive torque figure over an almost impossibly large rpm window.

Thing is Stan you are now using power/torque engine comparisons to expand the argument. All I am contesting here is your original statement that you cannot accelerate any faster once you are past peak torque and that ‘corner to corner power means s**t’ . Completely untrue.


Without delving into the mathematics and much more importantly, once you introduce the effects of gearing, at any given speed if you are accessing the point of peak power you can accelerate faster than at the point of peak torque.


In laymen’s terms, nobody would want to exit a corner in 3rd at 1000 rpm below peak torque when they can exit in 2nd at 1000 rpm below peak power. This is why gearing is so critical and relevant, and why in the real world of multi-ratio vehicles, peak acceleration values are not determined by peak torque values.


Of course individual engine characteristics and how the power/torque/rpm curves interact will affect what you can call ‘drivability’ or ‘flexibility’ or ‘usability’ and back on the original topic, would I be happy with a nice dollop of extra 197 torque. Sure for around town, but for going fast I would rather trade it off for a bit more BHP.
 
  2005 Nissan Navara
Im using engine power&torque to expand the argument, to proove a point, to disprove a statement you made "acln comes from power not torque"---totally untrue.

I never said you cant accelerate past peak torque, I said the rate of acceleration drops off after it.

Please, delve into the mathematics...
 
  Clio
Im using engine power&torque to expand the argument, to proove a point, to disprove a statement you made "acln comes from power not torque"---totally untrue.

I never said you cant accelerate past peak torque, I said the rate of acceleration drops off after it.

Please, delve into the mathematics...

Stan, we will end up going round in circles.

Peak vehicle acceleration comes from peak power with correct gearing.

I don't know many single gear ratio race or road vehicles or racers that short shift into the lower rpm torque curve for advantage. Best give it up.
 
  2005 Nissan Navara
In laymen’s terms, nobody would want to exit a corner in 3rd at 1000 rpm below peak torque when they can exit in 2nd at 1000 rpm below peak power.


Just re-read this last post: exactly, you exit in 2nd as theres greater tractive effort than in 3rd, therefore higher acln.

You are right, thats why gears are important.
Dont forget the technical definition of a gearbox: torque multiplier.

Stan, we will end up going round in circles.

Peak vehicle acceleration comes from peak power with correct gearing.

I don't know many single gear ratio race or road vehicles or racers that short shift into the lower rpm torque curve for advantage.

Not sure what you mean by this last statement?

Im still waiting for you to show me mathematically how power is solely responsible for acln....
 
  Clio
Just re-read this last post: exactly, you exit in 2nd as theres greater tractive effort than in 3rd, therefore higher acln.

You are right, thats why gears are important.
Dont forget the technical definition of a gearbox: torque multiplier.



Not sure what you mean by this last statement?

Im still waiting for you to show me mathematically how power is solely responsible for acln....

At least you now acknowledge the importance of gearing. This is the critical aspect of the whole argument here.

Regarding my last statement, a road vehicle has the benefit of selectable and variable gearing (a gearbox) so you have the choice, at a given road speed between operating at peak torque at a lower rpm (on topic - the Clio 197 remember) than at peak power at a higher rpm and in a lower gear. The overall, what you call “tractive effort”and subsequent acceleration will be greater at peak power in the lower gear.

Of course power is not ‘solely responsible’ for acceleration and I never said it was, as power and torque are mathematically linked but in the context of this debate, peak power is where you want to be operating at between the bends. You can't just kiss off power as irrelevant.
 
  Mk2 172
Anyway...... back to throttle bodies on a 197 :D

If the 182 kit that i had fitted by them is anything to go by, then it is as deltav said night and day difference to drive compared to a standard car. Better in every way IMHO :)
 
  clio 182 & Fiesta RSTurbo
Anyway...... back to throttle bodies on a 197 :D

If the 182 kit that i had fitted by them is anything to go by, then it is as deltav said night and day difference to drive compared to a standard car. Better in every way IMHO :)

See i've been contemplating goin ALL out on my clio but i don't want to go turbo, What spec is your clio?

I'm thinking of gettin head work done and forging the bottom end aswell.
 
Im still waiting for you to show me mathematically how power is solely responsible for acln....

how about a graph? This is engine torque corrected for gear ratio to give torque at the wheels compared to speed (I forget which engine and gearbox this was, it's just something I dug out of my PC, feel free to replicate the exercise with the 197 engine and gearbox). Ignore the units, they're not corrected for anything, however, I'm sure that we can agree that at any speed (horizontal axis) the gear that provides the most torque to the wheels (vertical axis) will generate the most acceleration (I'm going to ignore inertia).

Taking a velocity of about 3200, in 3rd gear the engine is making it's peak torque, according to Stan peak torque makes the car accelerate faster. In reality the car is accelerating faster in 2nd gear, and the greatest acceleration occurs when you never use the peak torque part of the engine power curve.

(I hope you can see the graph, I had to open a photobucket account for this)

torqueatwheels.jpg
 
  Mk2 172
See i've been contemplating goin ALL out on my clio but i don't want to go turbo, What spec is your clio?

I'm thinking of gettin head work done and forging the bottom end aswell.

My clio has jenvey throttle bodies, decat, full exhaust (2.5") and 428 cams.
It ran 218.4 bhp on powerstations dyno.
If you go for headwork, manifold matched to head, wilder cams and a fully forged bottom end including high comp pistons and balanced you will get around 240. But all that extra wont come cheap!!!
For cams and bodies and exhaust etc to achieve wot ive got your looking looking at 4-5k.
Best going supercharged tbh if you want a big power gain for less money.
For a full engine build you need to set aside best part of 10k!
Cams, 48mm jenveys, rods, pistons, headwork, inlet matched, flywheel, balanced, etc etc
 
  Clio 171 Cup
Massive thread hijack with the acceleration argument :?

Some one asked what the cost of the ITB kit would be and I wold be interested in how hard it wold be to ship the parts, ecu and remote install with qualified mechanic.
 
  C63 AMG, F430 & 172
My clio has jenvey throttle bodies, decat, full exhaust (2.5") and 428 cams.
It ran 218.4 bhp on powerstations dyno.
If you go for headwork, manifold matched to head, wilder cams and a fully forged bottom end including high comp pistons and balanced you will get around 240. But all that extra wont come cheap!!!
For cams and bodies and exhaust etc to achieve wot ive got your looking looking at 4-5k.
Best going supercharged tbh if you want a big power gain for less money.
For a full engine build you need to set aside best part of 10k!
Cams, 48mm jenveys, rods, pistons, headwork, inlet matched, flywheel, balanced, etc etc

My new spec is below, I think 10k would just about cover it inc labour (plus VAt)

Full engine rebuild
OMEX 600
OMEX race loom with renault ECU delete
Jenvey 48s parallels
Jenvey ported manifold
Jenvey 120mm trumpets
Jenvey FRP airbox base plate
Jenvey alloy fuel rail
PiperX 600 100mm box filter
Peco 43 injectors
Weber fuel pressure regualtor
CAT CAM 422's (vanos cam)
CAT CAM PAC springs
Ported Head
Full head rebuild with new steam seals, guides, inlet valves
Wossner 12:8 High compression pistons
Total Seal ring sets (gapped by headshop)
182 4-2-1 manifold
K-tec link de-cat
k-tec 2.5" stealth cat back
Lightened and balanced crank
Lightened Flywheel and balanced clutch cover
Weight matched rods
ARP 2000 studs (big end)
ACL race big end bearings
Glyco mains bearings
Glyco thrust bearings
New bottom end gasket kit (inc crank seals etc)
New crank pulley bolt
New water pump
New MLS Head gasket
New Head bolts
New thermostat
New oil pump
Full strip down and clean up
Block decked and head skimmed to bring clearance up
Block honed
Renault Cam belt kit with tentioers
Renault Aux belt kit
Cup AUX brackets
Cup alternator
Custom short rad (wider and thicker)
10" 1040 CFM pacet fan
Valeo pressure plate
Valeo release bearing
HELIX autosport organic disc
Uprated engine mounts with solid dog bone
 
  Clio 171 Cup
Ben is that for your 172, was interested in the 197 kit which is using standard internals.

Your car would be a weapon though :evil:
 
  clio 182 & Fiesta RSTurbo
My new spec is below, I think 10k would just about cover it inc labour (plus VAt)

Full engine rebuild
OMEX 600
OMEX race loom with renault ECU delete
Jenvey 48s parallels
Jenvey ported manifold
Jenvey 120mm trumpets
Jenvey FRP airbox base plate
Jenvey alloy fuel rail
PiperX 600 100mm box filter
Peco 43 injectors
Weber fuel pressure regualtor
CAT CAM 422's (vanos cam)
CAT CAM PAC springs
Ported Head
Full head rebuild with new steam seals, guides, inlet valves
Wossner 12:8 High compression pistons
Total Seal ring sets (gapped by headshop)
182 4-2-1 manifold
K-tec link de-cat
k-tec 2.5" stealth cat back
Lightened and balanced crank
Lightened Flywheel and balanced clutch cover
Weight matched rods
ARP 2000 studs (big end)
ACL race big end bearings
Glyco mains bearings
Glyco thrust bearings
New bottom end gasket kit (inc crank seals etc)
New crank pulley bolt
New water pump
New MLS Head gasket
New Head bolts
New thermostat
New oil pump
Full strip down and clean up
Block decked and head skimmed to bring clearance up
Block honed
Renault Cam belt kit with tentioers
Renault Aux belt kit
Cup AUX brackets
Cup alternator
Custom short rad (wider and thicker)
10" 1040 CFM pacet fan
Valeo pressure plate
Valeo release bearing
HELIX autosport organic disc
Uprated engine mounts with solid dog bone

Thats a big list of stuff! :eek:

Dan R

I don't really want to get massive power gains as the misses will be havin the car soon as i get my rs turbo back, i just want it to be safe and not have to be rebuilt. Obviously i know alot of other will need upgrading like the front brakes and the clutch.

How are the gear boxes fairing up? sorry about the thread hijack and many questions.
 
  C63 AMG, F430 & 172
My gearbox has been used with over standard power for about 3 years and its only just started to grind into 3rd, If you rush the change your asking for trouble! Some of the turbos are running 300hp 250lbft and are still doing ok.
 
  ITB'd MK1
ported/polished blah blah..... terms that can mean whatever you want, and usually mean not much. The inlet and exhaust ports are reworked to a spec we've devised, 3 angle seats, softened chamber, Catcams valve springs and cams. ITB manifold matched to the head. :)
 
  2005 Nissan Navara
how about a graph? This is engine torque corrected for gear ratio to give torque at the wheels compared to speed (I forget which engine and gearbox this was, it's just something I dug out of my PC, feel free to replicate the exercise with the 197 engine and gearbox). Ignore the units, they're not corrected for anything, however, I'm sure that we can agree that at any speed (horizontal axis) the gear that provides the most torque to the wheels (vertical axis) will generate the most acceleration (I'm going to ignore inertia).

Taking a velocity of about 3200, in 3rd gear the engine is making it's peak torque, according to Stan peak torque makes the car accelerate faster. In reality the car is accelerating faster in 2nd gear, and the greatest acceleration occurs when you never use the peak torque part of the engine power curve.

(I hope you can see the graph, I had to open a photobucket account for this)

torqueatwheels.jpg

For a start the X axis is engine speed, not velocity.

Secondly "In reality the car is accelerating faster in 2nd gear"...yes because as the graph shows, torque at the wheels is increased for lower gears!

Thirdly, I never said a car acclerates at point of peak torque, I said Torque is what provides acln. In terms of engine delivery characteristics, this will be a nice "fat" torque curve spread over as long an rpm range as possible.

This discussion is clearly boring other forum users (including myself now).
 
  clio 182 & Fiesta RSTurbo
ported/polished blah blah..... terms that can mean whatever you want, and usually mean not much. The inlet and exhaust ports are reworked to a spec we've devised, 3 angle seats, softened chamber, Catcams valve springs and cams. ITB manifold matched to the head. :)

A company who knows what they're doin with an engine and not sellin gimmiks to make money, sorry if you thought i was being nosey just some companies differ with headwork.

That sounds perfect tbh, i have a few things to tie up but i will be in touch via phone in the next few months or so. :)
 
  2005 Nissan Navara
Ok fair enough, but as I said:

Secondly, "In reality the car is accelerating faster in 2nd gear"...yes because as the graph shows, torque at the wheels is increased for lower gears!

Thirdly, I never said a car acclerates at point of peak torque, I said Torque is what provides acln. In terms of engine delivery characteristics, this will be a nice "fat" torque curve spread over as long an rpm range as possible."

and as I also said: Getting boring now.
 
For maximum acceleration, you want to be operating in the range of rpm/s which offer maximum engine torque, and therefore maximum tractive effort, over/for the longest period. Maximum tractive effort=maximum acceleration. Increased power (with rpm) allows this tractive effort to be excercised, but as engine torque drops off with increased engine speed, ultimately there becomes a point of diminishing return for tractive effort, and also acceleration.

So to summarise, you will gain the main bulk of acceleration through the engine speeds which offer most torque. The "length" of period of the this acceleration will be determined by the trend of power delivery around this time/area. However past the point where torque drops off, acceleration rates are lower.

:coffee:
 
  alien green rs133
My gearbox has been used with over standard power for about 3 years and its only just started to grind into 3rd, If you rush the change your asking for trouble! Some of the turbos are running 300hp 250lbft and are still doing ok.

you know what you want dont ya... a straight cut dog box :D
 


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