ClioSport.net

Register a free account today to become a member!
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

2001 172 no revs at idle, now wont start..



Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Hi guys,

I could really use some help.

I just got my 2001 172 back on the road after some major surgery this year (car not me) and I got a genuine renault cambelt kit and dephazer pulley fitted same time as MOT.

They guy tells me it's all done and he locked cranks etc but it's stalling every time you get to a junction, low recs or dumping the clutch?? It started ok but idled terribly, and by terribly I mean like it was struggling for air. I drove it home and it drove really nice, better than I remember tbh when in gear whilst the car had revs but every time I slowed the car cut out.

He thought this is due to gummy throttle body which I've cleaned but after doing my own research it sounded more likely to be the TDC sensor.

So when I had the TB off I took the TDC sensor off and cleaned with some wd40 around the metal nub bit.

Just put it all back together making sure all is connected and now it turns over but obsolete no spark at all.

So my question is have I found my problem with the TDC sensor or did I just break it?

It's weird that having reinstalled now it literally won't start for love nor money which is supposedly a sign of an issue with the TDC sensor so I'm hoping it's this and a replacement part is all it needs.

Any help would be appreciated cos the garage has basically just left me with it.
 

chris blue

ClioSport Area Rep
  172 Ph1 2001
Throttle body can be very tempremental, I am on my 3rd- and thats been refurbed- new butterfly and bored out

Could also be ICV Idle control valve. I cleaned mine, was good for a while, then went bad, replaced it and it was fine

Could be other things engine related Obvs.

Not starting could be a host of issues, battery, electrics, plugs, TDC sensor, other sensors
 

TheEvilGiraffe

South East - Essex
ClioSport Area Rep
Any help would be appreciated cos the garage has basically just left me with it.
Presumably not a Renault/RenaultSport specialist then...?

Could be blocked air filter, blocked cat, badly fitted inlet, badly done timing, fuel is 5 years old, fuel filter dead/blocked, earth issues, coilpack, ICV, throttle pedal, throttle body....
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Yikes, ok, well the battery is fine and brand new so is the air filter and alternator has just been refurbished.

Yeah my current suspects are the throttle body and the TDC.

So I looked into the ICV, but I didn't think the 172 ph2 had one? It's all done by the TB I read on here or is that wrong?

Bare in mind I was driving this car yesterday and I started it lunch time today. So it's not starting at all only since I had the TB and the TDC off.
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
So your saying get it diagnosed? Yeah good point maybe that's what I need to do before I buy parts. Would it have flagged the TDC sensor before it stopped starting at all?

Yes, he is suggesting you plug it into a code reader. That would be a good start for sure. There are a ton of reasons why its not starting, but ultimately all of the reasons boil down to fuel, air and spark.
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Did you connect everything back up properly?

What colour crank sensor do you have too? And what is the immobiliser light doing?
Thabks for all the replies btw I really appreciate it.

So its the standard TDC I don't think it's ever been changed. The immobiliser light which I think is the one between stop start is blinking red. The light near the gear stick doesn't come on.

It may or may not be worth mentioning that for some reason every time I try and lock the car it locks but let's out a high pitch whine/beep and light near gear stick goes red. Doesn't stop the horrible whine until I unlock and open and close the door.
 

Attachments

  • 20201216_195018.jpg
    20201216_195018.jpg
    2.5 MB · Views: 16
  • 20201216_143839.jpg
    20201216_143839.jpg
    1.2 MB · Views: 15
Try disconnecting the battery for 5 mins and then connecting it again mate. Sometimes when you mess with bits they go a bit weird. Take the positive and negative off to make sure residual power drains from the UCH

When I unplugged the MAF on my Megane (didnt even start the car whilst it was off) it just drove like s**t and stalled. Quick 5 mins of residual drain off battery and it was fine again 😂
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Try disconnecting the battery for 5 mins and then connecting it again mate. Sometimes when you mess with bits they go a bit weird. Take the positive and negative off to make sure residual power drains from the UCH

When I unplugged the MAF on my Megane (didnt even start the car whilst it was off) it just drove like s**t and stalled. Quick 5 mins of residual drain off battery and it was fine again 😂
Oh mate I hope so, if this worked I'd be so happy and I did disconnect the battery in an attempt to reset the TB.

Can you just explain what you mean by residual drain off the uch please?
 
Oh mate I hope so, if this worked I'd be so happy and I did disconnect the battery in an attempt to reset the TB.

Can you just explain what you mean by residual drain off the uch please?
In the easiest terms, when the battery is connected the UCH will get a constant trickle of 12v. When you take that away the short term memory usually gets lost so that it can sometimes forget temporary codes and issues like immobiliser stuff

It's always worth a try, start with stupid stuff because once you've spent 6 hours scratching your head you definitely do not want it to be something stupid that you could have fixed in 5 mins 😂
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Yes, he is suggesting you plug it into a code reader. That would be a good start for sure. There are a ton of reasons why its not starting, but ultimately all of the reasons boil down to fuel, air and spark.
I actually have a renault clip unit but I've never been able to use it because apparently it only works on an old version of Windows or something.
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
In the easiest terms, when the battery is connected the UCH will get a constant trickle of 12v. When you take that away the short term memory usually gets lost so that it can sometimes forget temporary codes and issues like immobiliser stuff

It's always worth a try, start with stupid stuff because once you've spent 6 hours scratching your head you definitely do not want it to be something stupid that you could have fixed in 5 mins 😂
Ok thank you.

But why do you need to take both leads off? Usually I just disconnect the neutral. And leave live on. But I'll give this a try and keep everything crossed
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Try disconnecting the battery for 5 mins and then connecting it again mate. Sometimes when you mess with bits they go a bit weird. Take the positive and negative off to make sure residual power drains from the UCH

When I unplugged the MAF on my Megane (didnt even start the car whilst it was off) it just drove like s**t and stalled. Quick 5 mins of residual drain off battery and it was fine again 😂
Ok tried disconnecting the battery both leads and everything comes back on but the car turns over fine but no spark.

I'm not sure if its an immobiliser thing as I've had issues with that before when the battery has died but it doesn't allow the engine to turn over does it? This is why I'm suspecting the TDC.

Keep up the advice though I will continue trying, any advice with the clip would help too, I have the software downloaded somewhere.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  Kangoo 172cup
Regarding the cutting out, Id be checking the timing again if it was running ok before a belt change.

Tdc sensor plug might be the cause of non start.
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Regarding the cutting out, Id be checking the timing again if it was running ok before a belt change.

Tdc sensor plug might be the cause of non start.
Yeah this is my worry buy how can I check the timing? Without asking them to re do it? And this will cost me when they haven't fit correctly but this is hard to prove. I spoke to a renault specialist this morning and they advised timing but they will charge me 300 quid to put right its like a lose lose.

Also people have asked about fuel and sparks, even though I have not changed the plugs they were not an issue yesterday. As in the car could start, just wouldn't idle correctly. And I filled with best shell fuel last night.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  Kangoo 172cup
Take it to the Renault specialist and if the timing is out id be asking the garage who done the belt for the money back. Will be able to tell on live map sensor data on clip if timing is miles out, should be around 400mbar on idle iirc.

If they have not got much experience with the f4r they might have locked the crank incorrectly.
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Take it to the Renault specialist and if the timing is out id be asking the garage who done the belt for the money back. Will be able to tell on live map sensor data on clip if timing is miles out, should be around 400mbar on idle iirc.

If they have not got much experience with the f4r they might have locked the crank incorrectly.
This is really useful thank you, i have spoken to a renault specialist
 

DomP182

ClioSport Club Member
  ph1 172, Arctic182
Have you got a fault code reader? I'd question the re-cat lambda maybe
 

npt

ClioSport Club Member
  BMW 320d- 172 cup
No spark means it's likely a crank sensor issue or maybe the coil
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Have you got a fault code reader? I'd question the re-cat lambda maybe
I have a renault clip but no old laptop to run it but i may have a diagnostic tool i sued before i think, will be ancient though and advice on any cheapo's from amazon?
 

Darren S

ClioSport Club Member
I actually have a renault clip unit but I've never been able to use it because apparently it only works on an old version of Windows or something.
Pretty sure that it needs a 32-bit Windows installation. Pretty much any PC or laptop from the last decade is likely to be using 64-bit Windows.

There are means to install the older version - but the simplest method would be if a mate or family member has an old laptop shoved in a cupboard or something that they no longer use. Chances are it could be 32-bit.
 

Darren S

ClioSport Club Member
I have a renault clip but no old laptop to run it but i may have a diagnostic tool i sued before i think, will be ancient though and advice on any cheapo's from amazon?
Not sure what the CLIP system uses to connect? Is it serial connection or USB?

Plenty of cheapo laptops on eBay if the connection type is correct?

 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Not sure what the CLIP system uses to connect? Is it serial connection or USB?

Plenty of cheapo laptops on eBay if the connection type is correct?

Thanks Darren, yeah now i remember thats the issue, the thing is all these laptops batterys are dead so you have to runa wire to car and also even though this is 35£ the sensor is £50 if i get a good one, it all just stacks up doesnt it hence why im trying to diagnose, but i do need to use this clip system as i dont even know if it works
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
Currently trying to source a 32 bit laptop without shelling out, cheap i know but im 600 into this cam belt change and got a car that nwont start so hey.

I did however find an old diagnostic tool and managed to run for errors, only one that came up was PO141 im im using it correctly. Which i believe is a lamba sensor which ive know about for years. SO this cant be my problem.

This diagnostic unit is a very old ebay jobby from china so not sure if it will pick up everything, if my TDCV sensor was bad would i have a warning light, engine maybe?
 

RustyMojo

ClioSport Club Member
So let’s take this back a stage. Was the car running fine before the cambelt was done? When was the cambelt changed and did it run fine for a time afterwards? As in ran well at idle, didn’t stall etc? At the moment it reads like you paid a garage to change the cambelt and dephaser, now the car won’t start. If that’s the case then something has gone wrong with the job your garage has done. If it was driving well and running for months now it won’t start it’s likely something else.

Does the car turn over OK? Just not fire up?

I would strongly recommend before firing the parts cannon or trying to do stuff on the cheap, getting someone who knows the cars to look at it. There is an old saying ‘buy cheap, buy twice’ and that seems to be very apparent with these little cars. It maybe cheaper in the long run to get someone who knows them to sort it straight from the bat
 

Tarvitz

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 2001
So let’s take this back a stage. Was the car running fine before the cambelt was done? When was the cambelt changed and did it run fine for a time afterwards? As in ran well at idle, didn’t stall etc? At the moment it reads like you paid a garage to change the cambelt and dephaser, now the car won’t start. If that’s the case then something has gone wrong with the job your garage has done. If it was driving well and running for months now it won’t start it’s likely something else.

Does the car turn over OK? Just not fire up?

I would strongly recommend before firing the parts cannon or trying to do stuff on the cheap, getting someone who knows the cars to look at it. There is an old saying ‘buy cheap, buy twice’ and that seems to be very apparent with these little cars. It maybe cheaper in the long run to get someone who knows them to sort it straight from the bat
I totally agree mate and consider it a lesson learnt, it was a guy my dad new so thought i could trust him but he is an old geezer and stubborn.

So going back, this car has been off the road some time, however i have been using it regularly, keeping parts moving starting engine and running etc. So after all the work i did to get back on road i had a battery issue well i thought, so bounght a brand new bosch battery, fitted it, started first drove like normal for a 10-20 minute drive.

Drove the car to get MOT and belts done and it died on the way! Turned out the alternator had burnt our unbeknown to me and the new battery died.

So I managed to tow it to the garage, it almost flew through the MOT besides the alternator issue and i gave him genuine Renault parts cambelt kit and dephaser pully.

Then he calls me and says its all done but you have another issue now its now cutting out at junctions stalling. I said "isnt that to do with the timing" he said "Absolutely not" i said "well it wasn't doing that before i gave it to you" he said "I think you'll find it was" ??

The issue is he is blaming the car being off the road and the fact that it broke down on the way to say its not his timing belt job.

He was convinced it was a stuck throttle body that was causing the stalling. So as he was charging me a lot just for what he had done and i knew he would continue to do this so I decided to take away from him because he said just clean the TB and will be fine.

So I drove it home and it stalled almost every time i changed gear too slow or coming up to junctions. Also the idle revs were so low it was almost conking out and if i tried to reverse or low revs it would stall. I then did my own research and some people say TB, some say TDC sensor and some say timing is off, so im eliminating the other stuff before i have to give back to someone to refit the belts which is a huge job.

So in summary, before the guy did belts the car was not stalling, after the job it ran ok but had the stalling issue, now i have removed the TB and cleaned and done same with the TDC sensor and now it turns over ok but no spark at all.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  Kangoo 172cup
Still reckon hes cocked up the timing. Does it sound ok when cranking? I hope a pulley has not slipped due to incorrect torquing.
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
Take inlet manifold off,
Take spark plugs out
Put dipstick in cylinder 1,
Rotate engine using spanner on crank bolt OR by rotating one wheel with car in gear (other wheel needs to be on the floor)
When the dipstick is poking out as far as it will go your at tdc
Take the plugs out of the RHS of rocker cover/head
Take a picture and post it here.

All of that will take you 2 hrs max.
 


Top