2001 172 no revs at idle, now wont start..

[Tarvitz]

Hi guys,

I could really use some help.

I just got my 2001 172 back on the road after some major surgery this year (car not me) and I got a genuine renault cambelt kit and dephazer pulley fitted same time as MOT.

They guy tells me it's all done and he locked cranks etc but it's stalling every time you get to a junction, low recs or dumping the clutch?? It started ok but idled terribly, and by terribly I mean like it was struggling for air. I drove it home and it drove really nice, better than I remember tbh when in gear whilst the car had revs but every time I slowed the car cut out.

He thought this is due to gummy throttle body which I've cleaned but after doing my own research it sounded more likely to be the TDC sensor.

So when I had the TB off I took the TDC sensor off and cleaned with some wd40 around the metal nub bit.

Just put it all back together making sure all is connected and now it turns over but obsolete no spark at all.

So my question is have I found my problem with the TDC sensor or did I just break it?

It's weird that having reinstalled now it literally won't start for love nor money which is supposedly a sign of an issue with the TDC sensor so I'm hoping it's this and a replacement part is all it needs.

Any help would be appreciated cos the garage has basically just left me with it.

 

[chris blue]

Throttle body can be very tempremental, I am on my 3rd- and thats been refurbed- new butterfly and bored out

Could also be ICV Idle control valve. I cleaned mine, was good for a while, then went bad, replaced it and it was fine

Could be other things engine related Obvs.

Not starting could be a host of issues, battery, electrics, plugs, TDC sensor, other sensors

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

Any help would be appreciated cos the garage has basically just left me with it.

Presumably not a Renault/RenaultSport specialist then...?

Could be blocked air filter, blocked cat, badly fitted inlet, badly done timing, fuel is 5 years old, fuel filter dead/blocked, earth issues, coilpack, ICV, throttle pedal, throttle body....

 

[Krarl]

Answer is under the ashtray

 

[Tarvitz]

Yikes, ok, well the battery is fine and brand new so is the air filter and alternator has just been refurbished.

Yeah my current suspects are the throttle body and the TDC.

So I looked into the ICV, but I didn't think the 172 ph2 had one? It's all done by the TB I read on here or is that wrong?

Bare in mind I was driving this car yesterday and I started it lunch time today. So it's not starting at all only since I had the TB and the TDC off.

 

[Tarvitz]

Answer is under the ashtray

So your saying get it diagnosed? Yeah good point maybe that's what I need to do before I buy parts. Would it have flagged the TDC sensor before it stopped starting at all?

 

[Krarl]

Did you connect everything back up properly?

What colour crank sensor do you have too? And what is the immobiliser light doing?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

So your saying get it diagnosed? Yeah good point maybe that's what I need to do before I buy parts. Would it have flagged the TDC sensor before it stopped starting at all?

Yes, he is suggesting you plug it into a code reader. That would be a good start for sure. There are a ton of reasons why its not starting, but ultimately all of the reasons boil down to fuel, air and spark.

 

[Tarvitz]

Did you connect everything back up properly?

What colour crank sensor do you have too? And what is the immobiliser light doing?

Thabks for all the replies btw I really appreciate it.

So its the standard TDC I don't think it's ever been changed. The immobiliser light which I think is the one between stop start is blinking red. The light near the gear stick doesn't come on.

It may or may not be worth mentioning that for some reason every time I try and lock the car it locks but let's out a high pitch whine/beep and light near gear stick goes red. Doesn't stop the horrible whine until I unlock and open and close the door.

 

[Krarl]

Try disconnecting the battery for 5 mins and then connecting it again mate. Sometimes when you mess with bits they go a bit weird. Take the positive and negative off to make sure residual power drains from the UCH

When I unplugged the MAF on my Megane (didnt even start the car whilst it was off) it just drove like s**t and stalled. Quick 5 mins of residual drain off battery and it was fine again 😂

 

[Tarvitz]

Try disconnecting the battery for 5 mins and then connecting it again mate. Sometimes when you mess with bits they go a bit weird. Take the positive and negative off to make sure residual power drains from the UCH

When I unplugged the MAF on my Megane (didnt even start the car whilst it was off) it just drove like s**t and stalled. Quick 5 mins of residual drain off battery and it was fine again 😂

Oh mate I hope so, if this worked I'd be so happy and I did disconnect the battery in an attempt to reset the TB.

Can you just explain what you mean by residual drain off the uch please?

 

[Krarl]

Oh mate I hope so, if this worked I'd be so happy and I did disconnect the battery in an attempt to reset the TB.

Can you just explain what you mean by residual drain off the uch please?

In the easiest terms, when the battery is connected the UCH will get a constant trickle of 12v. When you take that away the short term memory usually gets lost so that it can sometimes forget temporary codes and issues like immobiliser stuff

It's always worth a try, start with stupid stuff because once you've spent 6 hours scratching your head you definitely do not want it to be something stupid that you could have fixed in 5 mins 😂

 

[Tarvitz]

Yes, he is suggesting you plug it into a code reader. That would be a good start for sure. There are a ton of reasons why its not starting, but ultimately all of the reasons boil down to fuel, air and spark.

I actually have a renault clip unit but I've never been able to use it because apparently it only works on an old version of Windows or something.

 

[Tarvitz]

In the easiest terms, when the battery is connected the UCH will get a constant trickle of 12v. When you take that away the short term memory usually gets lost so that it can sometimes forget temporary codes and issues like immobiliser stuff

It's always worth a try, start with stupid stuff because once you've spent 6 hours scratching your head you definitely do not want it to be something stupid that you could have fixed in 5 mins 😂

Ok thank you.

But why do you need to take both leads off? Usually I just disconnect the neutral. And leave live on. But I'll give this a try and keep everything crossed

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Ok thank you.

But why do you need to take both leads off? Usually I just disconnect the neutral. And leave live on. But I'll give this a try and keep everything crossed

One lead is fine. There is no neutral just positive and negative unless your Clio is hooked up to the mains.

 

[Krarl]

Ok thank you.

But why do you need to take both leads off? Usually I just disconnect the neutral. And leave live on. But I'll give this a try and keep everything crossed

I usually just flick both of them off, you know for sure there is no 12v negative or positive then

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Pud, without one there is neither.

 

[Tarvitz]

Try disconnecting the battery for 5 mins and then connecting it again mate. Sometimes when you mess with bits they go a bit weird. Take the positive and negative off to make sure residual power drains from the UCH

When I unplugged the MAF on my Megane (didnt even start the car whilst it was off) it just drove like s**t and stalled. Quick 5 mins of residual drain off battery and it was fine again 😂

Ok tried disconnecting the battery both leads and everything comes back on but the car turns over fine but no spark.

I'm not sure if its an immobiliser thing as I've had issues with that before when the battery has died but it doesn't allow the engine to turn over does it? This is why I'm suspecting the TDC.

Keep up the advice though I will continue trying, any advice with the clip would help too, I have the software downloaded somewhere.

 

[Krarl]

Pud, without one there is neither.

Just easier to eliminate it though 😂 We all know it's the last thing you think of that causes the bloody issue 😂

@Tarvitz how fast is the immobiliser blinking?

 

[Tarvitz]

Just easier to eliminate it though 😂 We all know it's the last thing you think of that causes the bloody issue 😂

@Tarvitz how fast is the immobiliser blinking?

Not particularly fast

 

[Krarl]

Wont be that then, give the crank sensor a good wiggle and the wiring too. The black ones are the old style and the plugs come apart inside iirc

 

[Tarvitz]

Wont be that then, give the crank sensor a good wiggle and the wiring too. The black ones are the old style and the plugs come apart inside iirc

Cheers for your help I'll try and hope tomorrow as it's almost like it's not recognising

 

[Brigsy]

Regarding the cutting out, Id be checking the timing again if it was running ok before a belt change.

Tdc sensor plug might be the cause of non start.

 

[Tarvitz]

Regarding the cutting out, Id be checking the timing again if it was running ok before a belt change.

Tdc sensor plug might be the cause of non start.

Yeah this is my worry buy how can I check the timing? Without asking them to re do it? And this will cost me when they haven't fit correctly but this is hard to prove. I spoke to a renault specialist this morning and they advised timing but they will charge me 300 quid to put right its like a lose lose.

Also people have asked about fuel and sparks, even though I have not changed the plugs they were not an issue yesterday. As in the car could start, just wouldn't idle correctly. And I filled with best shell fuel last night.

 

[DomP182]

How can you have no revs at idle?

 

[Brigsy]

Take it to the Renault specialist and if the timing is out id be asking the garage who done the belt for the money back. Will be able to tell on live map sensor data on clip if timing is miles out, should be around 400mbar on idle iirc.

If they have not got much experience with the f4r they might have locked the crank incorrectly.

 

[Tarvitz]

How can you have no revs at idle?

You know what i mean, they are very to the point the engine chokes and car shakes

 

[Tarvitz]

Take it to the Renault specialist and if the timing is out id be asking the garage who done the belt for the money back. Will be able to tell on live map sensor data on clip if timing is miles out, should be around 400mbar on idle iirc.

If they have not got much experience with the f4r they might have locked the crank incorrectly.

This is really useful thank you, i have spoken to a renault specialist

 

[DomP182]

Have you got a fault code reader? I'd question the re-cat lambda maybe

 

[npt]

No spark means it's likely a crank sensor issue or maybe the coil

 

[Tarvitz]

Have you got a fault code reader? I'd question the re-cat lambda maybe

I have a renault clip but no old laptop to run it but i may have a diagnostic tool i sued before i think, will be ancient though and advice on any cheapo's from amazon?

 

[Darren S]

I actually have a renault clip unit but I've never been able to use it because apparently it only works on an old version of Windows or something.

Pretty sure that it needs a 32-bit Windows installation. Pretty much any PC or laptop from the last decade is likely to be using 64-bit Windows.

There are means to install the older version - but the simplest method would be if a mate or family member has an old laptop shoved in a cupboard or something that they no longer use. Chances are it could be 32-bit.

 

[Darren S]

I have a renault clip but no old laptop to run it but i may have a diagnostic tool i sued before i think, will be ancient though and advice on any cheapo's from amazon?

Not sure what the CLIP system uses to connect? Is it serial connection or USB?

Plenty of cheapo laptops on eBay if the connection type is correct?

MAXDATA ECO 4510 IW Laptop - Windows 7 Pro 32bit, 2GB Ram Core Duo CPU 160GB HDD | eBay

MAXDATA ECO 4510 IW Laptop. Old laptop with a clean install off Windows 7 Pro, not a super fast laptop and the battery is dead in the unit. But it runs okay. Good for a learning laptop of running old software.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Tarvitz]

Not sure what the CLIP system uses to connect? Is it serial connection or USB?

Plenty of cheapo laptops on eBay if the connection type is correct?

MAXDATA ECO 4510 IW Laptop - Windows 7 Pro 32bit, 2GB Ram Core Duo CPU 160GB HDD | eBay

MAXDATA ECO 4510 IW Laptop. Old laptop with a clean install off Windows 7 Pro, not a super fast laptop and the battery is dead in the unit. But it runs okay. Good for a learning laptop of running old software.

www.ebay.co.uk

Thanks Darren, yeah now i remember thats the issue, the thing is all these laptops batterys are dead so you have to runa wire to car and also even though this is 35£ the sensor is £50 if i get a good one, it all just stacks up doesnt it hence why im trying to diagnose, but i do need to use this clip system as i dont even know if it works

 

[Tarvitz]

Currently trying to source a 32 bit laptop without shelling out, cheap i know but im 600 into this cam belt change and got a car that nwont start so hey.

I did however find an old diagnostic tool and managed to run for errors, only one that came up was PO141 im im using it correctly. Which i believe is a lamba sensor which ive know about for years. SO this cant be my problem.

This diagnostic unit is a very old ebay jobby from china so not sure if it will pick up everything, if my TDCV sensor was bad would i have a warning light, engine maybe?

 

[RustyMojo]

So let’s take this back a stage. Was the car running fine before the cambelt was done? When was the cambelt changed and did it run fine for a time afterwards? As in ran well at idle, didn’t stall etc? At the moment it reads like you paid a garage to change the cambelt and dephaser, now the car won’t start. If that’s the case then something has gone wrong with the job your garage has done. If it was driving well and running for months now it won’t start it’s likely something else.

Does the car turn over OK? Just not fire up?

I would strongly recommend before firing the parts cannon or trying to do stuff on the cheap, getting someone who knows the cars to look at it. There is an old saying ‘buy cheap, buy twice’ and that seems to be very apparent with these little cars. It maybe cheaper in the long run to get someone who knows them to sort it straight from the bat

 

[Tarvitz]

So let’s take this back a stage. Was the car running fine before the cambelt was done? When was the cambelt changed and did it run fine for a time afterwards? As in ran well at idle, didn’t stall etc? At the moment it reads like you paid a garage to change the cambelt and dephaser, now the car won’t start. If that’s the case then something has gone wrong with the job your garage has done. If it was driving well and running for months now it won’t start it’s likely something else.

Does the car turn over OK? Just not fire up?

I would strongly recommend before firing the parts cannon or trying to do stuff on the cheap, getting someone who knows the cars to look at it. There is an old saying ‘buy cheap, buy twice’ and that seems to be very apparent with these little cars. It maybe cheaper in the long run to get someone who knows them to sort it straight from the bat

I totally agree mate and consider it a lesson learnt, it was a guy my dad new so thought i could trust him but he is an old geezer and stubborn.

So going back, this car has been off the road some time, however i have been using it regularly, keeping parts moving starting engine and running etc. So after all the work i did to get back on road i had a battery issue well i thought, so bounght a brand new bosch battery, fitted it, started first drove like normal for a 10-20 minute drive.

Drove the car to get MOT and belts done and it died on the way! Turned out the alternator had burnt our unbeknown to me and the new battery died.

So I managed to tow it to the garage, it almost flew through the MOT besides the alternator issue and i gave him genuine Renault parts cambelt kit and dephaser pully.

Then he calls me and says its all done but you have another issue now its now cutting out at junctions stalling. I said "isnt that to do with the timing" he said "Absolutely not" i said "well it wasn't doing that before i gave it to you" he said "I think you'll find it was" ??

The issue is he is blaming the car being off the road and the fact that it broke down on the way to say its not his timing belt job.

He was convinced it was a stuck throttle body that was causing the stalling. So as he was charging me a lot just for what he had done and i knew he would continue to do this so I decided to take away from him because he said just clean the TB and will be fine.

So I drove it home and it stalled almost every time i changed gear too slow or coming up to junctions. Also the idle revs were so low it was almost conking out and if i tried to reverse or low revs it would stall. I then did my own research and some people say TB, some say TDC sensor and some say timing is off, so im eliminating the other stuff before i have to give back to someone to refit the belts which is a huge job.

So in summary, before the guy did belts the car was not stalling, after the job it ran ok but had the stalling issue, now i have removed the TB and cleaned and done same with the TDC sensor and now it turns over ok but no spark at all.

 

[Brigsy]

Still reckon hes cocked up the timing. Does it sound ok when cranking? I hope a pulley has not slipped due to incorrect torquing.

 

[Tarvitz]

Still reckon hes cocked up the timing. Does it sound ok when cranking? I hope a pulley has not slipped due to incorrect torquing.

Yeah sounds normal, how would I know?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Take inlet manifold off,
Take spark plugs out
Put dipstick in cylinder 1,
Rotate engine using spanner on crank bolt OR by rotating one wheel with car in gear (other wheel needs to be on the floor)
When the dipstick is poking out as far as it will go your at tdc
Take the plugs out of the RHS of rocker cover/head
Take a picture and post it here.

All of that will take you 2 hrs max.