225 engined RS

[Serg]

now i know Fred has been trying to do this and one of the big problems is the gearbox. But do people think that in the future it wll become the thing to do like the Mi16 in the 205?

Also what will be the big advantages? i know there will be more power but how much extra weight will it add? and another thing how much do you think it would realisticly cost to have done, because if it worked out cheaper than a turbo conversion i would of thought companys would be doing it now as i would of thought it would be more realiable and slightly cheaper?

brad

 

[The Big Yin]

Nah i think from Fred's experiences its not tht simple personally i think it will be the norm to have a turbo in every car range

 

[Serg]

turbos on all cars would be interesting. I was just wondering if it had been done or if it would become common. I just think it would be a beast.

 

[Englebert]

I remember Fred saying N/A was the way, so i was wondering if he'd given up? He does drive a Vee now after all.

 

[artur69uk]

That a question I have often asked myself and I have spoken to a well known car builder which said that it would be quite straight forward. The weight difference between a turbo conversion engine and a 225 engine is minimal but I work out cheaper. I have a 225 engine which I bought about 3 weeks ago and im looking to go down that road (225 engine in mk2 phase 1 172).

 

[Englebert]

I think if it was easy Fred would of had it done in a jiffy though!

 

[MATT BLACK]

Stay well clear of that conversion - ive looked into it and its to messy. Fred bought most of the tackle off me and i think he has now realised its to much hassle. Hes not getting a refund though

 

[Frasers Cup]

I would just do what matt did and stick a tt engine in a clio instead of the megane engine. Yeah it may not be from the same manufacturer as your car, but it will run much more power and wont leave its pistons lying all over the road when you up the boost.. Might be cheaper too as its a more common engine.

 

[Frasers Cup]

And as matt says its easier to install anyway.

 

[Serg]

so why is it so difficult? mounting points? wring? size? etc etc

 

[MATT BLACK]

You can basically fit any engine in any car if you know what your doing. The difficulty with the 225 engine is getting it wired up and running - ive not yet come accross one wrote off 225 to use for donor bits. The engines are crap and im sure if you tune them there gonna blow - the gearboxes are a nightmare and in all honesty a well set up 172 on TB's will be much quicker. If your gonna go turbo, go for a TT engine - there a proven set up. You can buy my car for £7000 ( 425bhp )

 

[Frasers Cup]

^^ good price considering all the work thats gone into it and the level of tune the engine is running. You should take the engine out of it though matt and put it in a s1 elise or something. Would be rapid on the 1/4 mile. Late 10's early 11's Id think.

 

[artur69uk]

That a very good argument Matt Black, I dont know what to do anymore !!!

I would ove to buy your engine and running gear and stick it in mine, would you consider that?

 

[MATT BLACK]

To much messing - its £7k for the job lot. It has FK coilovers / detachable steering wheel / 172 btrakes + lots more

 

[Frasers Cup]

Drag tyres for the front?

 

[MATT BLACK]

Yeh why not

 

[G_F]

With the 225, doesnt the cluth fluid also the fluid used for the brakes? So when beasting it, hence heating the braking fluid up, the clutch will start to slip under load?

Or was this bloke talking cos shite to me?

 

[Frasers Cup]

What width do you run on the front matt for the road tyres? And do you have an lsd to handle the power better?

 

[MATT BLACK]

With the 225, doesnt the cluth fluid also the fluid used for the brakes? So when beasting it, hence heating the braking fluid up, the clutch will start to slip under load?

Or was this bloke talking cos sh*te to me?

They do have an hydraulic clutch but its seperate from the brakes

 

[G_F]

They do have an hydraulic clutch but its seperate from the brakes

Well he did have a tash, dunno why i even spoke to him.

 

[MATT BLACK]

run 205 yokos on the front ( road wheels ) and 215 Mickey T racing slicks for the strip. The gearbox is a 6 speed with strengthened internals and a quaiffe LSD

 

[Serg]

so you say the 225 is no stronger than a 172 engine and the gearbox isnt much better either.
right so if going turbo its best to look into a TT engine seems to be what most people say. If wanting to stay with NA engines what would people recomend? (apart form tuning the 172 engine)

 

[Dubai182]

Either go for TB's or stick a TT engine in like Matt did....really fancy dropping a TT engine in my clio here,just a logistical nightmare

 

[Fred@BTM]

so you say the 225 is no stronger than a 172 engine and the gearbox isnt much better either.
right so if going turbo its best to look into a TT engine seems to be what most people say. If wanting to stay with NA engines what would people recomend? (apart form tuning the 172 engine)

the 225 engine is a hell of a lot stronger than the 172, buts its still nowhere near the level of the VAG lump

 

[MATT BLACK]

the 225 engine is a hell of a lot stronger than the 172, buts its still nowhere near the level of the VAG lump

Thats right - the 225 lump will probably implode at 275bhp without steel rods and forged pistons. The VAG lump on a standard bottom end can be tuned to 350 bhp or with steel rods and forged pistons 550 bhp + ( In america there running them at 800 bhp )

 

[Frasers Cup]

Hmmm so you could quite easily get a car with 800bhp and less than 800kg with that engine.

It would destroy bikes!

 

[artur69uk]

Ok I have made my mind anyone need a 225 engine? Im going to speak to my garage guy and find out how much to do it!

Matt how easy does the engine fit in and what gearbox to use? Cheers

 

[Fred@BTM]

Thats right - the 225 lump will probably implode at 275bhp without steel rods and forged pistons. The VAG lump on a standard bottom end can be tuned to 350 bhp or with steel rods and forged pistons 550 bhp + ( In america there running them at 800 bhp )

some of the megane boys are upto 280 with no bother

remember the F7P?? BBPT have that upto 400odd bhp

 

[MATT BLACK]

The engine fits in very easily - you will have to get hold of audi engine mounts and fabricate new mounts were the 172 ones go. Funnily enough all the mounts fit in the same place as the Audi ones do. Personally i would fit a 5 speed manual box with quaiffe LSD. Try to get an S3 lump if you can with a K04 turbo fitted. The audi engine even uses a dog leg mount at the rear like the 172. You will need an intercooler ( I have one ) and a set of gear change cables from a Golf GTi 20v with gear shifter. You will also need some v-dub 6 bolt drive shafts. You will need to run either a DTA are Emerald Engine management system and loom. You can use the standard inlet manifold off the S3 but will have to change the throttle body to an accelerator cable type linkage instead of a FBW ( passat 2.0 16v will do the trick ) You can use the standard ex manifold but will have to fabricate a new downpipe which would meet up to your existing exhaust ( decat it ). V-dub boxes have an hydraulic clutch so your gonna have to fit an hydraulic clutch mechanism / reservoir and piping + always fit a new hyd clutch release mechanism in the box as there a pain to do whilst in the car. You can pipe the TT engine to the 172 rad but you will loose your aircon system. Your gonna come accross alsorts of electrical problems that are going to be a nightmare because with it being a road car your gonna have to co-incide the 172 ECU and electrics with the DTA / Emerald ECU. A good sparky should be able to sort that. The v-dub shafts are hollow and need to be cut with 3/4 length going to the gearbox - you then cut the 172 shafts with 50% length going to the 172 hubs - the 172 shafts slot into the v-dub shafts perfectly. You will then need to measure & balance them + weld them ( v strong welds ). You will need to replace the standard coilpacks on the TT engine with plug leads / coil. You will also need to change the standard injectors with Bosch green giants. The in tank fuel pump will need replacing with a mitsubishi EVO (walbro type ) fuel pump.

That is just a very quick insight of what you need to do. The above will give you 280 bhp with a map. If you want more power your gonna need another £3k to take it to 400 bhp.

 

[MATT BLACK]

some of the megane boys are up to 280 with no bother

Give it 6 month - i know of one guy running one at 265 bhp and hes chewed his box up already. Those F4R bottom ends cant take the strain

 

[Andyman]

Will any 5 speed VAG box do or is there a specific one?

 

[Fred@BTM]

Give it 6 month - i know of one guy running one at 265 bhp and hes chewed his box up already. Those F4R bottom ends cant take the strain

i'll disagree with you on that one mr matt! :rasp:

 

[BenR]

I'll disagree.

The VAG lump is by no means nothing special by any means, its a boggo standard 4 pot with a turbocharger, an awful head, pretty bog standard designs for components. Boost is a wonderful thing.

the Fr4T is a BEEEEEFY engine, the gearbox is another issue but we'll see how much abuse they can take before they brake. And like i've always said, gearbox's live if you use them correctly. Engine management is a seperate issue, i'm sure you could push some serious power out of the renault lump if you were to run a decent turbo and ECU on it.

 

[Joe@ShedMotorsport]

People are saying leave the 225 lump and fit a VAG lump as if its going to be easier, reading matt's quick "how to" guide would suggest otherwise. To me it looks like the 225 lump will be a lot simpler. There are concerns over the amount of power the 225 lump can run with std internals which is fair enough, but would you really in your right mind want to run more than 280 bhp in an every day clio? Fair enough if its meant to be a drag monster, but for most people thats not the case.

 

[BenR]

So far with the meganes its been a case of controlling boost and not triggering the limp mode, the stock ECU is incredibly complex.

Stick a standalone on it and it'll be far easier to hold 300bhp on a stock engine with a larger turbo.

 

[G_F]

God, i love this thread.

 

[Thomss]

All interesting stuff.

 

[Neil G]

People are saying leave the 225 lump and fit a VAG lump as if its going to be easier, reading matt's quick "how to" guide would suggest otherwise. To me it looks like the 225 lump will be a lot simpler. There are concerns over the amount of power the 225 lump can run with std internals which is fair enough, but would you really in your right mind want to run more than 280 bhp in an every day clio? Fair enough if its meant to be a drag monster, but for most people thats not the case.

Agree

It sounds like the same old story of internals being the limiting factor...rebuild any turbocharged engine with the best forged pistons and rods money can buy and you'll be able to wind the boost right up.

I still don't see any reason why the 225 engine would have any problems at 270/80 bhp so long as the mapping and supporting mods (intercooler & injectors) were top notch.

 

[MATT BLACK]

So far with the meganes its been a case of controlling boost and not triggering the limp mode, the stock ECU is incredibly complex.

Stick a standalone on it and it'll be far easier to hold 300bhp on a stock engine with a larger turbo.

OK smart arse - lets see you fit a 225 in a clio

I know 3 people that have fitted the 1.8 T in a clio with outstanding results. Once you have fitted the 225 megane engine in a clio let me know and i will glue a big rubber c0ck on my bonnet and drive round beeping the national anthem.

 

[BenR]

wooop wooooop.

I said nothing about fitting one into a clio, but simply the comments that it is a weak engine compared to the vag lump, which at best is average.

But your saying you will do the big rubber c**k thing if i simply fit an engine?