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A048 road use?? Do they work
- Thread starter mrlee03
- Start date
172
They're not a bad tyre by any means but if you expect good wet grip you'll get caught short.
Take it easy in greasy/wet conditions and you'll be fine.
Get some heat into them and they won't fail you.
I've used 595 RSR's daily for a year or so on 2 cars and they've never let me down apart from on greasy winter roads when I've been a bit enthusiastic into corners.
Can't argue in the dry summer months.
Take it easy in greasy/wet conditions and you'll be fine.
Get some heat into them and they won't fail you.
I've used 595 RSR's daily for a year or so on 2 cars and they've never let me down apart from on greasy winter roads when I've been a bit enthusiastic into corners.
Can't argue in the dry summer months.
172
Yeah I agree, RSR's are mild in comparison but still shite in the wet.
You can't expect wet grip from such a performance tyre. Drive normally and it won't kill you but as I said don't be hero...
This is a hot area with the Motorsports Association (MSA) right now - are list 1C tyres road legal? The A048R is on the MSA's List 1C (Google for the latest list).
The marketing blurb from some manufacturers state that these tyres are for dry conditions on track. If you have an accident on these tyres in the wet on the road you could be nailed by a smart Solicitor/Barrister.
There are many opinions on what is a legal road tyre, the law is not clear. But the current guidance from the MSA is NOT to use list 1C tyres on the road. I expect there will be some statements in this area of the next few weeks sent to MSA licence holders. I would also expect that the MSA's stance would be applied to normal day to day use.
So not definitive as yet, but do think if you want to expose yourself financially and legally by using 1C tyres on the road.
I just finished off my old A048R on a Targa Rally last Sunday on Wethersfield airfield, so I'm not tempted to use them on the road!
The marketing blurb from some manufacturers state that these tyres are for dry conditions on track. If you have an accident on these tyres in the wet on the road you could be nailed by a smart Solicitor/Barrister.
There are many opinions on what is a legal road tyre, the law is not clear. But the current guidance from the MSA is NOT to use list 1C tyres on the road. I expect there will be some statements in this area of the next few weeks sent to MSA licence holders. I would also expect that the MSA's stance would be applied to normal day to day use.
So not definitive as yet, but do think if you want to expose yourself financially and legally by using 1C tyres on the road.
I just finished off my old A048R on a Targa Rally last Sunday on Wethersfield airfield, so I'm not tempted to use them on the road!
Clio 182
They must be older tyres, Yokohama A048's are now for competition use only and not for road use....been like this since last year!
I use them on track, awesome tyres but you'll never get the heat into them on the road to see the benefits in my opinion.
I use them on track, awesome tyres but you'll never get the heat into them on the road to see the benefits in my opinion.
Only in some sizes. Many sizes are still E marked.
Whether its sensible is another matter, but its legal
Clio 182
Ahh I see, I only run the 195/50/15 equivalent which a friend of mine runs on several of his race cars and I get through him (via Tweeks) and that's just what he told me!
JamesBryan
ClioSport Club Member
They came standard on some Lotus cars.
The law is very vague. The MSA believes that some people have been prosecuted for driving to track days in the rain, using tyres described as for "dry track use". It's the "suitable for purpose" interpretation which is one of the major grey areas.
As an extreme example, if you're on an asphalt multi-venue stage rally using tyres described as being for dry weather use, it would be acceptable to use them on the road between stages as that's acceptable use. But if it suddenly rains, you're in a road car, driving along behind the rally car (same time, same road, same conditions) using the same tyres, then that could be considered inappropriate use. The rally car was caught out in extreme conditions and can change tyres at service, the road car should be equipped for these day to day conditions. Same tyres, same conditions, one could be considered legal, the other not.
That's an extreme example of what the MSA have to deal with, and they'll always err on the side of caution, so they're giving guidance that list 1C tyres shouldn't be used on the road, despite them being legal in the appropriate conditions.
An E marked tyre can be generally considered as a road legal tyre, certainly that's the way the Welsh Police consider the situation (they've been heavily involved in defining what a road legal tyre is on road rallies).
However there are always exceptions - the DMACK DMT-RC tyre is E marked but can't be used on road rallies as it's on the FIA's "moulded slick" list!
A potential minefield and if you have a whoopsy on tyres which could be considered "inappropriate for use" then you could be in trouble.
I suspect that will have to do with the rules for road rallies through the MSA as they might offer a competitive advantage and arent within the spirit of the event, rather than because they are illegal.
No, nothing to do with competitive advantage or spirit of the event (which isn't defined anywhere). This is all about safety in its widest context.
I never said list 1C tyres were illegal, that's the grey area, some tyres cannot be considered suitable for purpose dependant on use. A tyre may be suitable for purpose in one use case on the road, but not another - legal in one case but not another, same tyre.
Tyres on the FIA's "moulded slick" list cannot be used under R 18.4.2 in the MSA Blue Book. The specific road rally tyre rules don't have anything to do with competitive advantage, in fact 18.4.1 states that tyres are free as long as they fit under the standard wheels arches (then are qualified further with no moulded slicks and tyres must be road legal at all times). Safety and exposure to potential prosecution (competitors and officials) are major issues - is a moulded slick the right tyre for lanes which can be slippery, muddy, etc, especially when the manufacturer states that they're for dry asphalt use. These events are also timed at an average of 30mph so are sticky tyres really required? Bear in mind that we might know these tyres are suitable for purpose with care required in some conditions, but would a juror who knows nothing about tyres?
Bottom line, if you're using a tyre described as being suitable for dry asphalt and the roads are dry, there shouldn't be a problem. If you're on a tyre for dry asphalt in the rain then you are exposed to potential prosecution. So many variables and potential interpretations, is it worth risking for use on the road?
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Its like everything else in law.
For instance, if I'm driving along and pressing buttons on my headunit and im pulled over, the police have the burden of proof, and they must prove that I was driving without due care and attention.
If on the other hand I'm skipping tracks on my phone, in a dash cradle, the simply have to prove I touched the phone, the fact it caused inattention is no longer an issue.
With tyres, if you had an accident in the pouring rain on a motorway whilst driving on semi slicks, the police would have to prove they were unsuited to the conditions, or whatever, but they would first have to prove they contributed to or caused the crash.
Without an E mark, they merely need to pull you over and check the sidewalls. The lack of an E mark proves they are illegal, whether or not they caused the crash is no longer an issue.
So in repsonse to the OPs original question, yes they are legal, in that they are E marked and thus approved for use on the road.
Could you still be subject to prosecution following an accident? Yes of course, in much the same way as with many modified car parts.
If we're getting into a debate about it, how many of your road rally competitors use R90 compliant brake pads?
For instance, if I'm driving along and pressing buttons on my headunit and im pulled over, the police have the burden of proof, and they must prove that I was driving without due care and attention.
If on the other hand I'm skipping tracks on my phone, in a dash cradle, the simply have to prove I touched the phone, the fact it caused inattention is no longer an issue.
With tyres, if you had an accident in the pouring rain on a motorway whilst driving on semi slicks, the police would have to prove they were unsuited to the conditions, or whatever, but they would first have to prove they contributed to or caused the crash.
Without an E mark, they merely need to pull you over and check the sidewalls. The lack of an E mark proves they are illegal, whether or not they caused the crash is no longer an issue.
So in repsonse to the OPs original question, yes they are legal, in that they are E marked and thus approved for use on the road.
Could you still be subject to prosecution following an accident? Yes of course, in much the same way as with many modified car parts.
If we're getting into a debate about it, how many of your road rally competitors use R90 compliant brake pads?
Sorry, not correct. Non-E marked tyres ARE legal to use on the roads, in fact many Police vehicles use non-E marked tyres. It's back to Construction and Use and suitability for use.
It IS illegal to sell non E-marked tyres for pure road use in the UK. However you can buy non E marked tyres for other uses from competition through to agriculture.
Police Forces do generally accept that an E marked tyre is suitable for road use (especially in Wales as they were involved in the process with road rallies). However there can be exceptions across the range, from semi-slick through to knobblies, dependant on use. The Welsh Association of Motor Clubs decided to only allow E marked tyres on their road rally Championship events. This caused uproar as non-E marked tyres are road legal and competitors were forced to buy new E marked tyres. However if the worse happened then your tyres wouldn't be questioned with an E mark. Not a perfect situation, but it partially covered the grey area of what was an acceptable road tyre.
E marking is gradually disappearing from many competition oriented tyres as they can no longer meet E marking requirements, mainly wet grip for semi slicks and noise.
If a manufacturer describes their tyre as being for dry asphalt use and you have an accident in the rain, then at the very least that's something against you.
I'm not debating anything, just communicating current thinking from the MSA. They're providing guidance that tyres on list 1C should not be used on the road as they're specifically for racing use, even if they do have an E mark. Specifically, the MSA are providing guidance that the A048 shouldn't be used on the road and you'll be turned away from a road rally if you have them fitted. This is still in the process of being communicated, further developments after the Rallies Committee meeting next week.
So you can use A048 tyres on the road, but you're taking a risk.
I'm pleased that I finished off my old A048 from my Elise (race use) last Sunday on the Targa Rally at Wethersfield Airfield. Yes, an event running under road rally regulations (but all within the confines of an airfield) so if the MSA guidance had been fully communicated I wouldn't have been able to use my A048 tyres! No longer an issue for me going forward.
It IS illegal to sell non E-marked tyres for pure road use in the UK. However you can buy non E marked tyres for other uses from competition through to agriculture.
Police Forces do generally accept that an E marked tyre is suitable for road use (especially in Wales as they were involved in the process with road rallies). However there can be exceptions across the range, from semi-slick through to knobblies, dependant on use. The Welsh Association of Motor Clubs decided to only allow E marked tyres on their road rally Championship events. This caused uproar as non-E marked tyres are road legal and competitors were forced to buy new E marked tyres. However if the worse happened then your tyres wouldn't be questioned with an E mark. Not a perfect situation, but it partially covered the grey area of what was an acceptable road tyre.
E marking is gradually disappearing from many competition oriented tyres as they can no longer meet E marking requirements, mainly wet grip for semi slicks and noise.
If a manufacturer describes their tyre as being for dry asphalt use and you have an accident in the rain, then at the very least that's something against you.
I'm not debating anything, just communicating current thinking from the MSA. They're providing guidance that tyres on list 1C should not be used on the road as they're specifically for racing use, even if they do have an E mark. Specifically, the MSA are providing guidance that the A048 shouldn't be used on the road and you'll be turned away from a road rally if you have them fitted. This is still in the process of being communicated, further developments after the Rallies Committee meeting next week.
So you can use A048 tyres on the road, but you're taking a risk.
I'm pleased that I finished off my old A048 from my Elise (race use) last Sunday on the Targa Rally at Wethersfield Airfield. Yes, an event running under road rally regulations (but all within the confines of an airfield) so if the MSA guidance had been fully communicated I wouldn't have been able to use my A048 tyres! No longer an issue for me going forward.
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Clio 182
The law might be vague but the A048's I've got have got clear writing on the sidewall in capital letters saying 'Competition use only'.
Another grey area. If you're using a tyre with this marking for road use then it's probably not suitable. However I've had cars pass the MOT with such tyres fitted as they were just about to go to a rally.
The Welsh Police consider these tyres as inappropriate for use on the road (despite them potentially being E marked) even if you're on an event. The MSA consider that if you're on an event then you're competing, so they're fine. I'll probably be using tyres marked like this on an upcoming rally, but I WON'T be driving the car to the event with the tyres fitted to the car.
I have some tyres marked "Not For Highway Use", that's clear.
Don't you just love all this! The same tyre being legal at some times for some uses, but not for others. Just don't risk it.
Clio 182
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. If a tyre says 'competition use only' it's pretty clear that means NOT for road use, in my eyes anyway and as Yokohama intended when they changed them to motorsport sizing for their non road legal variants and market them for competition use only.
Don't know why you'd try and justify using them on the road to be honest, and clearly an issue if you're intending to drive on the roads between stages etc. I'd say they're obviously aiming at the circuit motorsport sector. Plenty of other similar tyres that are road legal!
Think of wider use cases than just asphalt tyres. Most gravel tyres are marked "For Competition Use only". I have piles of them and I use them on tests, regularities and road sections for road rallies, historic rallies and Targa rallies. Most competitors in Historic road rallies use these tyres. I'm competing on an event when using these tyres so meeting the statement on the sidewall. The same would also apply to tarmac tyres with these markings used on the road between stages. It's impractical to use tyres on a stage, change to road tyres immediately after the stage, go back to the competition tyres before the next stage, ...
There's also the issue of safety. Many road tyres wouldn't be able to stand up to the rigours of a stage/test due to weak sidewalls and depth of rubber, especially at the tread/sidewall interface. The MSA have rejected some tyres for inclusion in list 1A due to these considerations. A tyre designed for competition should be way more suitable and safer for competition conditions than a road tyre. The MSA aren't going to compromise safety in any way at all so competition marked tyres can be used on competitive events.
If these gravel tyres couldn't be used between stages on the road then they can only be used on single venue gravel events, and there aren't many of those! Most tyres used on Rally GB have "For Competition Use only" on the sidewall, aren't E marked, but they're considered legal as they're being used for competition and are suitable for use.
So yes, you CAN use tyres marked "For Competition Use only" on the road if you are competing on an event. Again, guidance from the MSA. But if you use them for pure road use then there's the possibility of prosecution. I've seen some people use gravel tyres as Winter tyres for the road - not a good idea legally and the compound is wrong anyway.
Interestingly, I've just been sorting tyres after a 12 Car rally last night - I noticed that my shot A048 are E marked, but they are definitely on list 1C, which the MSA are stating are not for road use. So not all E marked tyres can be considered road legal. Again, no definitive definition of what constitutes a legal road tyre.
There's also the issue of safety. Many road tyres wouldn't be able to stand up to the rigours of a stage/test due to weak sidewalls and depth of rubber, especially at the tread/sidewall interface. The MSA have rejected some tyres for inclusion in list 1A due to these considerations. A tyre designed for competition should be way more suitable and safer for competition conditions than a road tyre. The MSA aren't going to compromise safety in any way at all so competition marked tyres can be used on competitive events.
If these gravel tyres couldn't be used between stages on the road then they can only be used on single venue gravel events, and there aren't many of those! Most tyres used on Rally GB have "For Competition Use only" on the sidewall, aren't E marked, but they're considered legal as they're being used for competition and are suitable for use.
So yes, you CAN use tyres marked "For Competition Use only" on the road if you are competing on an event. Again, guidance from the MSA. But if you use them for pure road use then there's the possibility of prosecution. I've seen some people use gravel tyres as Winter tyres for the road - not a good idea legally and the compound is wrong anyway.
Interestingly, I've just been sorting tyres after a 12 Car rally last night - I noticed that my shot A048 are E marked, but they are definitely on list 1C, which the MSA are stating are not for road use. So not all E marked tyres can be considered road legal. Again, no definitive definition of what constitutes a legal road tyre.
Clio 182
You're going off on a tangent to be honest, 99% of the guys asking the question on this forum just want to know if they can drive to and from trackdays on them, which of course they shouldn't really.
Agreed, but people need to understand the reasons why the use of the likes of the A048 can be an issue. They can then make their own informed decisions, not just listen to the opinions of others which can be incorrect. There is no definitive answer, depending on how/when/where the tyre is being used. But personally I wouldn't take the risk of using a 1C tyre for road use.
Darryl_1983
ClioSport Club Member
RB 182 Cup
I've used Nankang NS-2R in the past and wouldn't bother with them again unless for a track car, they're good in the dry and seem to last well on track, but the wet grip on the road is a bit crap to be honest (similar to the Toyo T1R that were on the car when i bought it). These get better rating than the 595 RSR's too, so dread to think what they're like in the wet on the road.
I'm now using AD08R, which i think would stack up well against pretty much any high level road tyre in the wet. But offer much better dry and track grip. I'll most likely buy these again unless there is a good offer on something else.
No idea what A048's are like, but guessing they'd not be too great in the wet.
I'm now using AD08R, which i think would stack up well against pretty much any high level road tyre in the wet. But offer much better dry and track grip. I'll most likely buy these again unless there is a good offer on something else.
No idea what A048's are like, but guessing they'd not be too great in the wet.
mikekean
ClioSport Club Member
996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
AlanWalk - If the tyres are E marked they are legal to use on UK roads in any weather condition, irrelevant of the manufactures target use. I think you are confusing the fact that that some 1C tyres use to be E marked and are no longer. Some people have obviously been burnt by a plod that is not in the know, they or a colleague has pulled someone over with Yoko A048's or similar that are marked (for competition use only) and have prosecuted them for doing so. Now such plod thinks all Yoko A048 type tyres are not road legal, but is not aware some people will be running older A048's that are E marked. These tyres are legal to use, but because he is not knowledgeable in this area of the law, Mr Plod will still try and screw you over. Unfortunately we live in a world where just because you hold a certain position in society it does not mean you know or a very good at what you do...
Most Police forces where rallies etc are a common occurrence will turn a blind eye to the fact the tyres are not E marked as they know the cars are not being used day to day.
Most Police forces where rallies etc are a common occurrence will turn a blind eye to the fact the tyres are not E marked as they know the cars are not being used day to day.
We're going way beyond the OP. We're now on to the legality of tyres on the public highway. I've spent a LONG time talking to the MSA about this as competitors don't know what tyres to run where and when. There is no "blind eye" in the eyes of the Law, but there is a great deal of scope for interpretation of Construction and Use Regulations. Many road rally cars WILL be used on a daily basis. The main issue is "suitable for purpose", for the purpose the vehicle is being used at the time when stopped.
Again, can a tyre which is described as being for dry asphalt use by the manufacturer be acceptable in the rain? This goes beyond the Police, it's what a Barrister/Solicitor could claim in Court. Just because a tyre is E marked tyre (when new) doesn't necessarily make it 100% road legal , the vagaries of "suitable for purpose" apply. Is an E marked gravel tyre suitable for use on the road? An E marked tyre designed for use on gravel being used on asphalt, is that suitable use?
E marking is aimed at helping consumers make decisions about tyre choice. It doesn't define a road legal tyre, but can be interpreted this way.
The Welsh Police have taken the stance that an E marked tyre is road legal., subject to subsequent wear from new. That's great, everybody knows where they stand. But this stance isn't universal across the UK. However if I was stopped using an E marked gravel or 1C tyre on the road outside Wales, I'd supply contact details for the Officer in Wales who has progressed this position. One application of the law in one part of the country, potentially another in another part!
Non E marked tyres are legal on the road, the Police use them. "Suitable for use" applies.
A048 tyres, E marked are not, are rioad legal subject to specific use. I've been informed that there's no physical diference between either A048 tyre.
Specifically, the E marking of the A048 is irrelevant to the MSA - they're on List 1C, E marked or not. Current guidance from the MSA is that tyres on 1C should not be used on the road. This is where this issue started with the MSA - E marked DMACK DMT-RC and A048 tyres were presented fitted to cars on some road rallies and they were refused a start by Scrutineers. Why should a "road legal" E marked tyre be rejected from a road rally? Because they were deemed unsuitable for use by the MSA.
Yes, this is very specific to competition, not general road use, but if I was wanting to prove blame on the driver of a car in a road accident and they were running tyres on list 1C, I'd use the guidance from the MSA against the driver.
Don't you love this! Everything seems relatively simple, then you drill in and it's far from simple. Again, not my thoughts, just communicating the thoughts from the MSA in this very sensitive area. Personally, I take the view that if I can avoid reasonable risk then I'll do so. I'll be using E marked gravel tyres which are also marked "For Rally Use" on a road rally in two weeks time, but I won't be driving to the start on those tyres as I'm not actually on a rally. More road oriented tyres feel way better anyway on the way to the start. Exactly the same would apply to my tyres marked "For Competition Use Only". Interestingly, in this latter area the MSA believe tyres marked with "For Competition Use Only" are fine on the road when actually competing, but the Welsh Police don't!
Bottom line, understand the risks and make your own judgement, there is no definitive position regarding the legality of tyres on the Public Highway. A great deal of interpretation, right or wrong, of old laws can be applied. If you have an E marked tyre then you're more likely to be ok, but not necessarily.
Again, can a tyre which is described as being for dry asphalt use by the manufacturer be acceptable in the rain? This goes beyond the Police, it's what a Barrister/Solicitor could claim in Court. Just because a tyre is E marked tyre (when new) doesn't necessarily make it 100% road legal , the vagaries of "suitable for purpose" apply. Is an E marked gravel tyre suitable for use on the road? An E marked tyre designed for use on gravel being used on asphalt, is that suitable use?
E marking is aimed at helping consumers make decisions about tyre choice. It doesn't define a road legal tyre, but can be interpreted this way.
The Welsh Police have taken the stance that an E marked tyre is road legal., subject to subsequent wear from new. That's great, everybody knows where they stand. But this stance isn't universal across the UK. However if I was stopped using an E marked gravel or 1C tyre on the road outside Wales, I'd supply contact details for the Officer in Wales who has progressed this position. One application of the law in one part of the country, potentially another in another part!
Non E marked tyres are legal on the road, the Police use them. "Suitable for use" applies.
A048 tyres, E marked are not, are rioad legal subject to specific use. I've been informed that there's no physical diference between either A048 tyre.
Specifically, the E marking of the A048 is irrelevant to the MSA - they're on List 1C, E marked or not. Current guidance from the MSA is that tyres on 1C should not be used on the road. This is where this issue started with the MSA - E marked DMACK DMT-RC and A048 tyres were presented fitted to cars on some road rallies and they were refused a start by Scrutineers. Why should a "road legal" E marked tyre be rejected from a road rally? Because they were deemed unsuitable for use by the MSA.
Yes, this is very specific to competition, not general road use, but if I was wanting to prove blame on the driver of a car in a road accident and they were running tyres on list 1C, I'd use the guidance from the MSA against the driver.
Don't you love this! Everything seems relatively simple, then you drill in and it's far from simple. Again, not my thoughts, just communicating the thoughts from the MSA in this very sensitive area. Personally, I take the view that if I can avoid reasonable risk then I'll do so. I'll be using E marked gravel tyres which are also marked "For Rally Use" on a road rally in two weeks time, but I won't be driving to the start on those tyres as I'm not actually on a rally. More road oriented tyres feel way better anyway on the way to the start. Exactly the same would apply to my tyres marked "For Competition Use Only". Interestingly, in this latter area the MSA believe tyres marked with "For Competition Use Only" are fine on the road when actually competing, but the Welsh Police don't!
Bottom line, understand the risks and make your own judgement, there is no definitive position regarding the legality of tyres on the Public Highway. A great deal of interpretation, right or wrong, of old laws can be applied. If you have an E marked tyre then you're more likely to be ok, but not necessarily.
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