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After 4 months with my 200...



  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Hmm I suppose the volumetric efficiency argument only really applies to W.O.T where you actually want to ingest as much air as possible. Even then, fair enough, there isn't a rho or an m in that equation...

What sort of scenarios is a hot charge more efficient? Presumably only in the sense that hotter charge requires a wider throttle & therefore less head loss over the TB or are there other reasons?

If you think of it the other way around its simpler, ie a cold charge is less efficient from an economy point of view.
The reason being that the whole point of the chemical reaction (which is a burn not an explosion as people commonly think) is to turn a load of liquid molecules into gaseous ones, and critically to change the number of molecules of gas present to cause an expansion which pushes the piston down. If the gas starts hot, it ends hot, and hotter means more expansion.
At full throttle you are struggling to fill the cylinder as much as you can to just allow you to get as many molecules of air in as possible to allow you to burn more fuel so a cold charge is useful, but at part throttle you arent trying to achieve that at all so a hotter charge that contains more energy to begin with is preferable.
Dont expect the effects to be noticeable just by trying to work out your own MPG though, we're only talking a very small effect here. But its just an example of where things arent always as obvious with engines as people think, ie that assumption its very natural to make that colder air would always be better.




Finally, and I know I can google this, but whilst you're here ( :p ) what even is the point in whatever "RON" or "octane" is? From energy principles it's all about Qlhv & from a stoichiometric AFR point of view it's all about the correct mass of air for a certain chemical composition of fuel. Neither 113 nor these E numbers seem to feature joules/gram or the number of oxygen atoms?

The key thing the RON number tells you is the detonation resistance of the fuel, so its telling you how hard you can work it without encountering problems. Like you say though, it tells you nothing about how much energy you are actually buying per litre.
Yet its very common for people to misunderstand this, look back in this thread and look at the number of people wrongly making the assumption that 95 or 98 is somehow telling you that the fuel is more or less diluted and that you'll need a bit less 98 etc and you can see how commonplace the misonception is, even among people who are quite involved with engines.

It really all is a bit "smoke and mirrors" with the way that fuel is marketted, we all know very little about what we are actually putting in our tanks!
And thats before you even consider fuel degredation and look at your tank a couple of months after its filled it up, when you are talking highly strung race engines fuel that is a couple of months old can have changed enough to now be putting your engine massively at risk, and the scarey thing is that a lot of that ageing can have happened before you even put it in your tank, while its still underground at the petrol station if its a garage that isnt heavily used and so ends up with the fuel being there for a lot longer.

Its one of those examples of where road cars really do need a conservative map to take all this into account.
 
  172
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, it's nice to be able to discuss & learn something worthwhile rather than reading yet another "my car is 7 years old but hasn't done 72k miles, do I still need a cambelt?" thread!

If the gas starts hot, it ends hot, and hotter means more expansion.

but at part throttle you arent trying to achieve that at all so a hotter charge that contains more energy to begin with is preferable.

I think these were the two bits I was missing/hadn't considered/got wrong. Hmm, something to ponder over at least. Suppose this nicely demonstrates just how major the limitations of the Otto Cycle etc are, as that indeed does suggest colder air will always be better for any circumstance.
 
  F56 MINI Cooper S
Lol, you are some sort of special breed aren't you!

He's already calculated that the vpower is more expensive and it still ends up being cheaper to run on that than it is normal 95Ron!

I was meerly stating a fact that you have to remeber that you will be paying more up front, not everyone has read the whole thread.
 

Flat Eric

Sing Hosanna!!
ClioSport Club Member
  F31 35d, Berlingo Na
So just to clarify. If I fill up my 182 later with super unleaded from shell. Everything will be ok?
Will I notice anything?
 

Flat Eric

Sing Hosanna!!
ClioSport Club Member
  F31 35d, Berlingo Na
Well I filled up with shell vpower. Engine just went bang. Joke

Will see what happens.
 
I have to admit I was one of these people who was on the "It doesn't matter what fuel you use it makes no difference" band wagon but just recently I've changed my opinion completely.

I'd swapped over to V-power a few months ago as Paul at RStuning suggested the car would respond alot better on it. A few weeks ago I decided I'd swap back to 95 Ron just to kill an area of doubt I had that I was wasting my money using V-power. After the couple of weeks of using 95Ron I swapped back to V-power again and the difference was unbelieveable. Certainly wasn't just the placebo effect either. Not saying the car is any quicker but it's a hell of a lot smoother and better to drive.
 
I was told by a couple of tuners at garages I've taken my VX to that they can tell which fuel has been used when they take the engine apart as most parts are much cleaner etc.

I probably fill up once a month, so the extra 10p a litre is neither here or there. I've used V-Power for the two years I had my Clio, my VX has never seen anything other that V-Power either.
 

MarkCup

ClioSport Club Member
Where I used to notice it most on my 172 Cup and also on my 200 is when it idles.

On V-Power/Momentum I can comfortably let the car pull itself along on tickover only in traffic, getting into 3rd or 4th without touching the throttle, whereas on 95 it was possible (just), but painful.
 
Kangarooing around and trying to stall lol. My Cup was fine on 95 and didn't make any difference to anything with what ever fuel I used, although it was a very strange car that one. On the Ph-1 there's a significant difference, whether the extra 30k miles on it plays a part in that I don't know.
 


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