Brake experts please help

[Rufstuf]

My brakes failed on me over the weekend. Last weekend I had new discs, pads and Goodridge hoses fitted, and the system was bled. The brakes were fine all week until I did some 'spirited' driving on Saturday. The brakes failed 3 times on me and I called out the RAC. He said he thinks it is the master cylinder?
I bled the system again yesterday and it was FULL of air?
I now have a brake again (of sorts), but I have no confidence in them.
Anyone have any ideas what has happened and how the air is getting in?

 

[Steve]

You must of got air in the abs pump.

Take it back to where it was done & complain.

 

[Fred@BTM]

air in the abs pump = mare

 

[ben_p]

fook ive got that in mine too! how can you get it out?

 

[Rufstuf]

It's a 172 cup, do I even have an ABS pump?

 

[Rob Clark]

possibly ditto ^^ changed my hoses over the weekend and sucked up some air on the drivers rear due to me being impatient on pedal pressing and raising. Bled the whole system 3 times since and pedal is still light to being with. Read up that some abs systems need a clip attached to cycles vales and abs pump to flush out air ? dunno if this is true on clios ?
How can you tell if air is in the abs pump ?

edit ^^ dont think cups do ahve abs so may just be a leak or air trapped elsewhere.

 

[Steve]

It's a 172 cup, do I even have an ABS pump?

No you don't, so wheres the air from?

 

[Fred@BTM]

uh oh!!

 

[d4ve86]

fred im still having this brake problem with my 182, remember you drove it at oulton? renault have had it for a day and said its fine, i can still push the pedal to the floor tho!

 

[Fred@BTM]

uh oh x 2!!!!

 

[Rufstuf]

Fred you're making me nervous

 

[Fred@BTM]

i can't help really without seeing the car, but it sounds like whoever fitted the brakes has completley drained the system which is a no no!

 

[bmh.01]

possibly ditto ^^ changed my hoses over the weekend and sucked up some air on the drivers rear due to me being impatient on pedal pressing and raising. Bled the whole system 3 times since and pedal is still light to being with. Read up that some abs systems need a clip attached to cycles vales and abs pump to flush out air ? dunno if this is true on clios ?
How can you tell if air is in the abs pump ?

edit ^^ dont think cups do ahve abs so may just be a leak or air trapped elsewhere.

Air in the ABS pump tends to be a problem when the ABS kicks in and the air moves from the pump into the braking circuit, and its a total ballache to get it out had it with a mates old mondeo once and it was never the same again tbh. One way is to use CLiP to cycle to ABS pump as you've said, to get it out I think the only way is to cycle the ABS pump. So you've got to work out a way to do it safety and without a CLiP computer I can't think of any really.

 

[Rufstuf]

The system wasnt drained completely, once the original hoses were taken off, it was just left to drip into a jar until the new ones were fitted.
It is a total mystery, all the hoses are mega tight, no leaks at the joints or the bleed nipples, Its not losing fluid anywhere, it just seems to be letting air in from somewhere. Could it be a seal in the master cylinder?

 

[bmh.01]

Seems strange as thats pretty much how I did mine and i've had no problems and i've got ABS. How long were they left to drip? I topped the fluid up to the top of the reservior took the hose off and fitted the new one as fast as I could and repeated, probably only lost 5mm of level in the res at most for each corner.

Try bleeding it again is all I can recommend, how are you doing it? Easibleed or Two-man? How many pumps per corner if two man?

 

[Rob Clark]

so if your feeling light pedal movement as normal NOT in ABS situations then its unlikely to be air in the abs pump then, just elsewhere in the system which normal bleeding should sort ?

 

[Rufstuf]

Try bleeding it again is all I can recommend, how are you doing it? Easibleed or Two-man? How many pumps per corner if two man?

Originally it was bled using the 3 man method. Yesterday I bought a 1 man kit, but I still had my dad working the pedal. He just pressed the pedal until the bubbles stopped (approx 4-5 times)

 

[d4ve86]

i dont know whats going on with my brakes, done 2 track days with them like it now so the car stops, ABS kicks in very very late, thats if it kicks in at all.

Im going to pressure bleed it this week which might help. Ill ask renault tomorrow about cycling the abs pump, but they dont know what there doing on a good day.

Need someone with a Clip computer really, who understands, and not leave my car with renault for a day, trip to rentec needed i think.

 

[Fred@BTM]

how EXACTLY IN DETAIL are you bleeding the brakes??

 

[bmh.01]

Try bleeding it again is all I can recommend, how are you doing it? Easibleed or Two-man? How many pumps per corner if two man?

Originally it was bled using the 3 man method. Yesterday I bought a 1 man kit, but I still had my dad working the pedal. He just pressed the pedal until the bubbles stopped (approx 4-5 times)

When I did mine I did about 15-20 pumps per corner to work the fresh fluid through. What order are you bleeding them in? I went drivers front, passenger front, drivers rear then passenger rear as per the haynes manual.

 

[Rufstuf]

Originally it was bled using the 3 man method. Yesterday I bought a 1 man kit, but I still had my dad working the pedal. He just pressed the pedal until the bubbles stopped (approx 4-5 times)

When I did mine I did about 15-20 pumps per corner to work the fresh fluid through. What order are you bleeding them in? I went drivers front, passenger front, drivers rear then passenger rear as per the haynes manual.

Ah.....
I have done the opposite. I thought you started from furthest away from master cylinder so I did nearside rear, offside rear, nearside front, offside front. Do you think this is my problem?

 

[bmh.01]

Might be, i'd try it for sure. Obviously being french it seems to be backward and you start with the closest to. Although i'm not sure most cars aren't closest too now I think about it.

 

[Vern]

i thought the rac guy said it was the master cylinder if it is this then the seals must have gone right ??? and if the seals have gone is this not how air could be getting in due to the fluid bypassing the cylinder worn seals causing a soft pedal and crappy brakes >? if it was me i'd get it checked but i may be wrong

 

[bmh.01]

I'd say the master cylinder is a possibility but i'd rebleed first before changing it.

 

[Rufstuf]

i thought the rac guy said it was the master cylinder if it is this then the seals must have gone right ??? and if the seals have gone is this not how air could be getting in due to the fluid bypassing the cylinder worn seals causing a soft pedal and crappy brakes >? if it was me i'd get it checked but i may be wrong

That seems to make the most sense to me. I think I'll get it booked in for a check.

 

[Lunner]

When I did mine I did about 15-20 pumps per corner to work the fresh fluid through. What order are you bleeding them in? I went drivers front, passenger front, drivers rear then passenger rear as per the haynes manual.

Ah.....
I have done the opposite. I thought you started from furthest away from master cylinder so I did nearside rear, offside rear, nearside front, offside front. Do you think this is my problem?

You're right, he is wrong, start from furthest away from master cylinder in you case nsr, osf, osr, nsf.

If you use the one man pressure bvleeding kit don't really need ot be pumping the pedal, coudl be you are sucking air back up inot the system??

There isn'tr a 3 man method, the std method is have a man sat in car and press brake pedal, keep pressure on pedal till man on wheels says stop. Man on wheel opens bleed valve while pedal is pressed down and then when fluid stops coming outand pedal is at floor the bleed nipple MUST be closed again, the man in the car can then remove his foot from the pedal.

The one man kit you connect it all up including to tyre at about 8psi and then open belld nipple and wait for fluid to run clear ie no air bubbles, and then close

 

[bmh.01]

Hmm the renault tech manual says to do it passenger rear, drivers front, drivers rear, passenger front so fook knows. I just went off how the haynes says and haven't any problems and as they say the proof is in the pudding.

I never had any air in the lines past what was in the new goodridges anyway.

 

[Lunner]

Hmm the renault tech manual says to do it passenger rear, drivers front, drivers rear, passenger front so fook knows. I just went off how the haynes says and haven't any problems and as they say the proof is in the pudding.

I never had any air in the lines past what was in the new goodridges anyway.

Thats if you have ABS, he doesn't, always start furthest away from master cylinder/ABS, ABS is on n/s of the car, master cylinder is on o/s of the car, and you always do one complete system, and then the other

 

[bmh.01]

Fair enough, never had a car sans ABS. Either way he hasn't done it right then as he's done both rears instead of doing a rear then a front to bleed one circuit.

 

[Lunner]

Yup, npot being funny but this is what happens if you try to work on your car wihtout knowing what you are doing, could have ended up stacking it with loss of brakes

 

[Rufstuf]

Right, this is all getting a little confusing now! I am going to re-bleed tomorrow. It is a NON-ABS 172 cup. What is the exact order for the bleeding from first wheel to last?
Do I just pump until there is no more air or do I give it 15-20 pumps as someone said earlier.
Is DOT 4 ok because the RAC guy said I should use DOT 5 but I dont believe him.

 

[ditz]

i did rear axle bushes on a golf which involves taking the rear axle + rear brake assemblies down leaving you with no flexy pipes to clamp off,, one side drained and i beleive i got air in the pump, read the tech bulletin for it and it said i needed a vw computer to put the abs ecu in to some sort of set up mode and i needed to bleed it with it in this mode to get the air out of the pump.. managed to get round in by bleeding it in sequence starting at the master cylinder cracking off the pipes working my way back.
so yeah it can be a sod.
if your brakes are failing totally id be looking for leaks

 

[ditz]

and you do know you dont just undo the bleed nipple and pump away--- you only dont want the nipple open at any time other than when the peddles down or it will suck air back up

 

[Lunner]

Right, get your one man kit and set it up, with pressure from the tyre, don't touch the pedal, its not necessary, f**k the number of pumps thats a shite method, you want it till you get no air bubbles, but give it a while cus i can run clear for a bit and then you'll get a few more bubbles.

do them in this order n/s/r, o/s/f then o/s/r, n/s/f

 

[Rufstuf]

Right, get your one man kit and set it up, with pressure from the tyre, don't touch the pedal, its not necessary, f**k the number of pumps thats a s**te method, you want it till you get no air bubbles, but give it a while cus i can run clear for a bit and then you'll get a few more bubbles.

do them in this order n/s/r, o/s/f then o/s/r, n/s/f

Thanks buddy

 

[Lunner]

oh use normal castrol dot 4 or super dot 4 if you track it

 

[d4ve86]

what should the bleed pattern be for a 182 with abs?

 

[edde]

what should the bleed pattern be for a 182 with abs?

Won't matter if done correctly and lead to bleed for ages but in theory.
Front left
Front right
Rear left
Rear right

 

[Rob Clark]

@ all the conflicting information regarding bleeding!!!
@ edde why for an abs system should you start at the front ? Im assuming abs pump is somewhere in front of the passenger seat with the master cylinder in front of the driver. I have/had air in the system which was drawn from drivers rear but unsure how far its gone.

 

[Steve]

Renault changed my fluid & did it the way lunner recommended.
I sat & pumped pedal for what seemed an age, but they kept topping up fluid.