CatCams 421 and standard ECU will it run for 100miles ?

[Toxic#66]

Hi

I'll fit my CatCams 5502421 soon. My firend will do all the mechanical part including fitting cams, 182 mani, RS inlet mani, for free thats the good news.
I also arranged for the re map to be done but the workshop able to do that is over 100miles from where I live
Is it possible to drive the car that far on a standard ECU ??
Or do I risk serious damage to the engine ?

 

[ditz]

you should be fine may be running a tad lean but if it was me i'd feel perfectly happy about driving it 100 miles.

 

[Steviant]

Have you installed them yet?

The 421 profile catcam doesn't work very well in the clio with standard ecu. If at all.

You need either 420 or 428 profile for best results with a standard ECU.

 

[Toxic#66]

Thats a good news

Just one more question before hard work begins. Is there anything I should do in adition to those mods mentioned above ??
Not much Clio Sport around Poland so everyone who decides to modify those babies pretty much goes separate ways. I take my "inspiration" from this forum


This little devil will run on our local 1.4mile drag races and I want to get most of it within my limited budget.

My best time so far is 16,14 on a winter tyres and cold weather

Since people in their Civics type R are beating me so far I thought it's time for WAR
Done some shopping this week:
182 exhaust manifold
RS stamped inlet manifold
CatCams 5502421
car is already fitted with GREEN air filter and a decat (but since 182 mani is comming in to play I will be doing exhaust from scratch 2,5'' stainless I think )
and in a few days hopefully all work will begin.

Is there anything else I'm missing ??

 

[Toxic#66]

Have you installed them yet?

The 421 profile catcam doesn't work very well in the clio with standard ecu. If at all.

You need either 420 or 428 profile for best results with a standard ECU.

nope, they will jet to be fitted. Thats why I'm asking, all they need to do with standard ECU is get me from point A to point B for a custom re map without engine damage 100miles total. If thats not possible I'll have to get the car on a truck and get it there that way.

 

[Steviant]

Have you installed them yet?

The 421 profile catcam doesn't work very well in the clio with standard ecu. If at all.

You need either 420 or 428 profile for best results with a standard ECU.

nope, they will jet to be fitted. Thats why I'm asking, all they need to do with standard ECU is get me from point A to point B for a custom re map without engine damage 100miles total. If thats not possible I'll have to get the car on a truck and get it there that way.

I have been told by the Cat cam distributor in the UK that the 421 does NOT work, you might be better with the 428 ones.

They will work fine with standard ecu.

 

[Toxic#66]

nope, they will jet to be fitted. Thats why I'm asking, all they need to do with standard ECU is get me from point A to point B for a custom re map without engine damage 100miles total. If thats not possible I'll have to get the car on a truck and get it there that way.

I have been told by the Cat cam distributor in the UK that the 421 does NOT work, you might be better with the 428 ones.

They will work fine with standard ecu.

You mean Standard ECU or ECU without a re map ?
Stand alone menagement is not an option for me, to expensive

 

[Steviant]

Standard ECU.

Can you swap them for 428?

 

[Toxic#66]

Standard ECU.

Can you swap them for 428?

If they will run fine after a custom re map of a standard ECU I dont think I want to They are the wildest CatCams gives (without further modifications of the engine) so I think power gain will also be bigger

 

[Steviant]

Standard ECU.

Can you swap them for 428?

If they will run fine after a custom re map of a standard ECU I dont think I want to They are the wildest CatCams gives so I think power gain will also be bigger

That is what I'm saying, they don't work with the standard ECU, remapped or not. So you might find that you will have to go down the route of additional ECU. I know s/one that had both 421 and 428 in his car, and he went with the 428, because he couldn't get the 421 to work properly.

Ben R will be along to explain the reason why at some point.

 

[Steviant]

I believe the Schrick cams are the best for the F4R engine. :approve:

 

[Toxic#66]

I've heard about limitations of a standart Siemens Sirius unit ( for some serious mods) but on the other hand some says it is quite powerfull unit.
You really think there is no way to do a good remap for those cams ?

Schrick is not an option for me now :/ I'v already bought CatCams.

 

[Steviant]

I've heard about limitations of a standart Siemens Sirius unit ( for some serious mods) but on the other hand some says it is quite powerfull unit.
You really think there is no way to do a good remap for those cams ?

Read posts 5 and 7 in this thread...

As I said the distributor for Catcams tells me that the 421's do not work in the clio with standard ecu/ with or without the remap. The standard ecu is a very powerful unit.

Read this

 

[Toxic#66]

Hmm

BenR wrote:

"The stock FBW ECU algorhithms have a real problems dealing with any overlap values as it causes manifold vacuum fluctuations which confuse the ecu as its designed to work with negative overlap values in its dephased state. Unsteady manifold vacuum just leads the ecu to close the throttle and stall the engine."

I think he meant electrically controlled throttle, what about mine ? controlled mechanically on a ph1 Sport.
Can it be the way to overcome this problem ?

 

[BenR]

That is for electronic throttles yes.

However you have an idle control valve on your car which will suffer similar issues. If you really must run them then you can adjust the throttle stop so the throttle is a tiny bit open all the time, then try reduce this amount a little at a time until you find a balance you are happy with.

 

[Toxic#66]

That is for electronic throttles yes.

However you have an idle control valve on your car which will suffer similar issues. If you really must run them then you can adjust the throttle stop so the throttle is a tiny bit open all the time, then try reduce this amount a little at a time until you find a balance you are happy with.

In other means, I'll be forced to make the car iddle at a slightly higher revs ?

So there are good news for me today
BenR what about my original question, will I be able to run the car on wheels for a remap ? or do I have to post it there by DHL

 

[wide]

think you should really listern better! ask catcams to change them for 428 if thats an option or your going to have problems!!! 428 are still quit wild but can be controlled by the std ecu.

 

[homer simpson]

I believe the Schrick cams are the best for the F4R engine. :approve:

wow Steve you have expensive taste

 

[BenR]

That is for electronic throttles yes.

However you have an idle control valve on your car which will suffer similar issues. If you really must run them then you can adjust the throttle stop so the throttle is a tiny bit open all the time, then try reduce this amount a little at a time until you find a balance you are happy with.

In other means, I'll be forced to make the car iddle at a slightly higher revs ?

So there are good news for me today
BenR what about my original question, will I be able to run the car on wheels for a remap ? or do I have to post it there by DHL

you will be able to drive it on a stock ECU, under normal conditions.

 

[Toxic#66]

think you should really listern better! ask catcams to change them for 428 if thats an option or your going to have problems!!! 428 are still quit wild but can be controlled by the std ecu.

Surely I dont want to argue with You
Power gain is crucial in this project and I have no problem with inconviences of running so wild cams (unless the car is totally undriveable)

So what do You think ?? is it doable ?

 

[Toxic#66]

you will be able to drive it on a stock ECU, under normal conditions.

What about after remap and idle adjustment ?
What do You think, will the ECU handle all of the cams potential ?

 

[BenR]

It will drive fine one remapped, and if you sort out the idle speed via the ECU aswell as possibly adjusting the throttle stop, then you should have no issues apart from a slightly higher idle speed.

However you wont be gaining that much bhp in comparison to the amount of torque lost sub 5000rpm. Simply going for the 'wildest' cams is a sure fire way of leading to dissapointment.

 

[TheJesus]

you'd be better off with 428's as said mate, unless you run the car on a stand alone, as 421's aren't really that wild.

 

[Toxic#66]

It will drive fine one remapped, and if you sort out the idle speed via the ECU aswell as possibly adjusting the throttle stop, then you should have no issues apart from a slightly higher idle speed.

However you wont be gaining that much bhp in comparison to the amount of torque lost sub 5000rpm. Simply going for the 'wildest' cams is a sure fire way of leading to dissapointment.

Won't the 182 exhaust mani sort of counter react with this ?
at least reducing lost of torque in low and mid rews ?

 

[Chris n nic]

Sounds like what my m8 did to his valver years ago....nothing below 5 k then loads above...might have a good peak power but wouldn't be a good 'drive' I would imagine

Chris

 

[Toxic#66]

I kinda like the boost it gives now around 4k, so I've got nothing against more boost at 5k I know fuel economy is down the drain with this, and there are lots of compromises to make. But if the car will run "normally" I mean every day use, that's fine with me.
What about that 182 mani I mentioned above ? You think it will influence lower and mid rews ??

 

[TheJesus]

I dont think it will run too well at part throttle, but I'm basing that on slightly wilder cams than these. Still think you'll need aftermarket management to get the best of it.

 

[mattjk]

I wonder if anyone will ever map the stock ecu for throttle bodies....

 

[mini-valver]

I know someone who is..... Aswell as Paul@RStuning.

 

[d4ve86]

you have posted asking for advice, your going against all the advice people have given, whats the point ...?

I read the threads on here last night and have looked at getting cams myself and it would be the 420's or 428's id go for to run on the standard ECU ... unless I could afford the schricks.

 

[Toxic#66]

I dont think it will run too well at part throttle, but I'm basing that on slightly wilder cams than these. Still think you'll need aftermarket management to get the best of it.

From what I know so far, workshops preffer standalone ECU cause they are easier for them to program. At least thats what I've come up with, after making few phone cals. Standalone is a very expensive toy, and what wil it give me ? aditional 3bhp ?

 

[Toxic#66]

you have posted asking for advice, your going against all the advice people have given, whats the point ...?

I read the threads on here last night and have looked at getting cams myself and it would be the 420's or 428's id go for to run on the standard ECU ... unless I could afford the schricks.

I hope to get the most out of general discussion on that subject.
I can't go for 420 or 428 cause i already bought 421.
I hope You all see the subject is moving on, and there are usefull information that I can learn from.
I told You what's on the menu, and now I'll be most grateful for any opinion You can add so this project is a success.

 

[BenR]

It will drive fine one remapped, and if you sort out the idle speed via the ECU aswell as possibly adjusting the throttle stop, then you should have no issues apart from a slightly higher idle speed.

However you wont be gaining that much bhp in comparison to the amount of torque lost sub 5000rpm. Simply going for the 'wildest' cams is a sure fire way of leading to dissapointment.

Won't the 182 exhaust mani sort of counter react with this ?
at least reducing lost of torque in low and mid rews ?

no discernable difference.

 

[TheJesus]

I dont think it will run too well at part throttle, but I'm basing that on slightly wilder cams than these. Still think you'll need aftermarket management to get the best of it.

From what I know so far, workshops preffer standalone ECU cause they are easier for them to program. At least thats what I've come up with, after making few phone cals. Standalone is a very expensive toy, and what wil it give me ? aditional 3bhp ?

You should probably do a bit of research, there's a reason stand alone is used and it's not a case of being easier for the garage. If anything its more of a ball ache, you have looms and sensors to mess with as well as mapping it from scratch. Get it mapped on the stock ECU and just see how it is, you'll know yourself if it's an improvement.

Personally, if I were you I would see if Cat will swap them for some 428's, wouldn't bother with the 420's as they look pretty much the same profile as the stock cams, which are faily wild as they are.

 

[Toxic#66]

From what I know so far, workshops preffer standalone ECU cause they are easier for them to program. At least thats what I've come up with, after making few phone cals. Standalone is a very expensive toy, and what wil it give me ? aditional 3bhp ?

You should probably do a bit of research, there's a reason stand alone is used and it's not a case of being easier for the garage. If anything its more of a ball ache, you have looms and sensors to mess with as well as mapping it from scratch. Get it mapped on the stock ECU and just see how it is, you'll know yourself if it's an improvement.

Personally, if I were you I would see if Cat will swap them for some 428's, wouldn't bother with the 420's as they look pretty much the same profile as the stock cams, which are faily wild as they are.

Dont take me for a fool, I know standalone is more than just a box.
I wrote it like that because every time I called tuning companie's all I heard was "we don't do french cars, maybe on OMEX, AEM etc. "
And it was even before I told them what Cams I want to run.
Anyway, its not the point.
As for the cams swap, is it possible to do that ? Will CatCam even exept unused cams for exchange ?

 

[GAV1]

ask them?

 

[mattjk]

People are trying to help you and your just throwing it back in there faces. Most of the above that have commented know what they are talking about and advised you what is best to do.

As above get in touch and see if you can do an exchange. No-one was suggesting you are a fool just trying to offer there knowledge to help you

 

[mini-valver]

I LOL'd at "Dont take me for a fool"....


I'd try and run the 421's if you're adament. It will work, driveability will be compromsed as well as idle.

 

[BenR]

If you want to run those cams then you will have to try what i have outlined. They will make the engine peakier in nature and loose you some lower rpm drive. However, that is yoru choice if you want something that just kicks like a mule above 5000rpm.

Alternatively you can swap to 428's that will work on the stock ECU, however they tend to trace the stock torque curve upto 4000rpm then kick up top aswell.

The 420's tend to produce more area under the curve sub 4000-5000rpm and only loose out a few bhp at peak.

Dont worry about 'figures' as two cams with the same advertised data can be compeltely different when it comes to valve position vs crank position, so dont listen to average punters when it comes to explaining cam data.

Its up to you what you would do, but personally on a road car i would sacrifice 5-10bhp at 7000rpm to gain significantly more area under the curve from 3000rpm on.

 

[phoenix1]

I believe the Schrick cams are the best for the F4R engine. :approve:

wow Steve you have expensive taste

fitted mine about 12000 miles ago there great