cold air feeds and rain

[NJ.]

If i put a cold air feed upto the front grill will the rain cause a problem

always see cars with big trumpets, but if it rains wont the water go into the engine? :S

 

[GordonD]

Water in the air isn't a problem.

What would be a problem is if the intake faced upwards and rain got in while the car was stopped and accumulated. Or you went through a creek or a pool of water and a quantity of water got into the intake.

You need the intake to be the lowest point (but not too low), or a low point with a water drain.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

Imo you won't see any gains having the cold air feed in the grill or foglight . Just run it down towards the wheel arch as per the original air feed . The engine sucks air , it's not forced so it will suck enough cold air from the wheel arch .If you go through very deep water and the air feed is in the grill or foglight then you might encounter a problem .

 

[Andyman]

Imo you won't see any gains having the cold air feed in the grill or foglight . Just run it down towards the wheel arch as per the original air feed . The engine sucks air , it's not forced so it will suck enough cold air from the wheel arch .If you go through very deep water and the air feed is in the grill or foglight then you might encounter a problem .

Complete rubbish.

Stick your head out the car window at 60 mph and open your mouth wide facing the flow of air. then try it with your mouth facing downwards. Come back and tell us what got more air in your mouth lol

Its pretty obvious your going to get more air pointing something directly in the flow of air rather than hiding it.

As for water problem unless your driving through a ford you wont have a problem (based on CAF pointing at the IK)

 

[franx]

these cars like constant airflow, forcing air in there is'nt going to help

I was also thinking of placing one in foglight but dirt+water got me worrying. Eventually people with more technical background told me about the airflow being best when it comes from a place where it's constant (example wheelarch, original setup) .
With the foglight CAF you'll be getting a lot when speeding, but when slower it'll be less so not ideally constant..

I've been fiddling with different airinakes this week and really the original setup does it best, BUT a little bigger size CAF or even removing one did even better.

When for example trying an open filter (carbon heat-shield trumpet) system right at the front bumper/grill i lost bigtime torque, sluggish throttle response and fuel milage went terrible. I could see the fuelgauge go down on hard driving..

so too much air was NO GOOD, my experience anyway..

This is discussed to death, just thought i'd share my findings

 

[Oliver_K4M]

I have placed it in the left foglight, no problems regarding humidity up to now. O.K., you are collecting more dirt, that requires more frequently cleaning of the filter.

 

[MillerLight]

when the CAF is in the wheel arch it has to work harder to combat the vortext the wheel produces.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

Imo you won't see any gains having the cold air feed in the grill or foglight . Just run it down towards the wheel arch as per the original air feed . The engine sucks air , it's not forced so it will suck enough cold air from the wheel arch .If you go through very deep water and the air feed is in the grill or foglight then you might encounter a problem .

Complete rubbish.

Stick your head out the car window at 60 mph and open your mouth wide facing the flow of air. then try it with your mouth facing downwards. Come back and tell us what got more air in your mouth lol

Its pretty obvious your going to get more air pointing something directly in the flow of air rather than hiding it.

As for water problem unless your driving through a ford you wont have a problem (based on CAF pointing at the IK)

The fact is you can't force air in . The engine sucks the air in , it can only take in as much as the size of the throttle body will allow . Even if your driving at 60mph , the air forced up the cold air feed hits a huge restriction , the air filter itself , so any pressure is lost . It's a totally pointless exercise imo .
Also if you have the CAF in the grill or foglight and your in slow moving traffic your going to be directly sucking up lovely warm exhaust gases from the guys car in front

 

[LeeP86]

the fact is you can force air in, i agree with you it can only take as much in as the size of the throttle body but if the aor is travelling quicker than the engine is sucking then you will get more air in than usual i.e better combustion. the advantage to having a caf from the front grill or similar the air is colder i.e denseer thus givin gbetter combustion. having a caf in the fog light or in the grill gives better performance i no this for a fact as i have seen it happen.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

^^^ You've seen it happen ? Then it must be right and i am wrong How did you actually see it happen ? Have you any hard evidence , facts and figures etc.... or do you have a mate who's induction kit now sounds slightly louder so if it's louder it must be producing more power :quiet:

You've actually just contradicted yourself by saying the air forced in is more than the engine is sucking in , it can only suck in as much air as the engine can physically suck in through a predetermined size opening . Simple laws of physics really .

 

[Fred@BTM]

don't anyone say ramair!

we have a customer who had his viper feed to his lower front grille, he's on his second engine now after the bad floods earlier in the year!

 

[LeeP86]

you are right in a way but if the throttle body stays open for a certain amount of time the you can only get so much air in but if the air is traveling faster then more air gets in. this happened at a race meeting i worked at last year where the induction pipe was not connected to the duct in the headlight. this caused the car to loose 5 tenths per lap, i ahve also checked with our chief mechanic to make sure im not talking out of my bum and it seems im not. hehe

 

[Dan@SJM]

The fact is you can't force air in . The engine sucks the air in , it can only take in as much as the size of the throttle body will allow . Even if your driving at 60mph , the air forced up the cold air feed hits a huge restriction , the air filter itself , so any pressure is lost . It's a totally pointless exercise imo .
Also if you have the CAF in the grill or foglight and your in slow moving traffic your going to be directly sucking up lovely warm exhaust gases from the guys car in front

Engines SHOULDNT suck. if they are sucking there is a restriction somewhere in the intake, be it the filter or the manifold etc etc. the way the engine works is it uses atmospheric pressure to fill the cylinder. so if there is a restriction in the intakeits then creatring a higher vacuum.

Also on the caf front, you want it in an area of high pressure. ideally the scuttle.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

You mean the air feed wasn't going to the original position down towards the wheel arch ? We are talking Clio's here ?? If he didnt have the air feed going anywhere he was most likely sucking in hot air from the engine bay .

Like i said before . There's a huge restriction inbetween the CAF / forced air and the throttle body , " the air filter " .

I just don't think it's worth feeding it from the grill or foglight imo .

 

[Fred@BTM]

a NA engine is like a humans lungs basically is what you're saying

Lee i don't quite agree with you, i do to an extent because air flow is a funny old thing that i don't think its possible to fully understand!! but do you not think that inlet temperature could also be an issue regarding the situation you mention?

 

[AmDaMan]

What is the pipe size for the standard renault airbox?

 

[MRBILLYUK]

The fact is you can't force air in . The engine sucks the air in , it can only take in as much as the size of the throttle body will allow . Even if your driving at 60mph , the air forced up the cold air feed hits a huge restriction , the air filter itself , so any pressure is lost . It's a totally pointless exercise imo .
Also if you have the CAF in the grill or foglight and your in slow moving traffic your going to be directly sucking up lovely warm exhaust gases from the guys car in front

Engines SHOULDNT suck. if they are sucking there is a restriction somewhere in the intake, be it the filter or the manifold etc etc. the way the engine works is it uses atmospheric pressure to fill the cylinder. so if there is a restriction in the intakeits then creatring a higher vacuum.

Also on the caf front, you want it in an area of high pressure. ideally the scuttle.

Of course it sucks . Thats why if you have an IK fitted you hear a loud roar when you press the accelerator pedal . Put your hand over the throttle body while the accelerator pedal is pressed . You'll feel it suck .

 

[LeeP86]

this was on the clio race cars from last year where the air feed came from the head light and the pipe dropped down to near the wheel arch. also the engine does suck as it works like a compressor when the piston goes down it draws air in. i dnt mean to be big head but ive got a degree in motorsport engineering and kinda know about these sort of things.

 

[LeeP86]

the inlet temperature does matter to fred cos the colder the air the denser it is and this has more oxygen in it than warm air which makes for a better explosion/combustion.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i have too! you've probably got a better grade than me though

 

[LeeP86]

fair enough lol just rtying to let people no im not trying to bullsh*t hehe

 

[Fred@BTM]

sometimes banging your head against a brick wall is easier! LOL

 

[Dan@SJM]

But if you read what i said if they suck there is a restriction. I.E your hand.the roar is the air filling the cylinder. made louder by the valves and ports. Main part of the sound and the change of note at 5krpm is volumetric efficiency being at its peak.

 

[AmDaMan]

the inlet temperature does matter to fred cos the colder the air the denser it is and this has more oxygen in it than warm air which makes for a better explosion/combustion.

You needed a certification for that??

Yes inlet temp does matter because if the inlet is warm then it warms the air going into the engine. Why do you think race cars use PTFE inlet gaskets to reduce heat transfer to the inlet manifold?

 

[wardy_182]

Well i havent got a degree or anything and would like to know what the best way 2 get more cold air into my engine is. Everything is just standard at the min, but thought about moving the pipe 2 the grill somewhere, somewhere that water won't get in!

any help appreciated

 

[LeeP86]

as my billy said the engine does suck if you think about it when the piston goes down the only valve/s open is the inlet valve, so when the piston goes down it creates more space in the engine this then has to be filled with air and the only way to do this is to suck it in through the inlet ports i.e the throttle body.

 

[Fred@BTM]

not all race cars do, clio cup they're not allowed to

 

[LeeP86]

the best bet is in the fog light or grill a small amount of water i.e a few drops of rain water will not harm the engine if anything mitgh make it slightly better even if it floods near you the water level will have to go above the thottle body to get any substantial water in the engin.

 

[LeeP86]

fred is correct in the current race cars they do not have cafs this is only because they are not allowed if they did they would be about 5 tenths lap quicker.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

What is the pipe size for the standard renault airbox?

Can't remember the exact size , but its quite small . The 2 holes going into the Ph2 172 airbox measure 68mm and 60mm x 80mm oval ( 70mm) . The air feeds are alot smaller than this though , espcially the one that goes underneath the airbox . Its something in the region of 50mm ID .

 

[LRTom]

The original question was concering water in the engine.

If it rains there is no issue with the CAf in the grill / fog light.

Also, you would have to go through a VERY deep puddle for the water to travel up the CAF, through the air box and into the engine!

 

[Andyman]

The fact is you can't force air in . The engine sucks the air in , it can only take in as much as the size of the throttle body will allow . Even if your driving at 60mph , the air forced up the cold air feed hits a huge restriction , the air filter itself , so any pressure is lost . It's a totally pointless exercise imo .

Yes but its not a case of forcing the air in, its about getting the air directed exactly where it it needs to be plus surplus air gets into the engine bay to help temps. The bigger the CAF and the more free flowing it is, tempretures will also be lower due to air being circulated.
Hiding the CAF isnt going to get in as much air as a direct feed will. Like i said, im basing this on a CAF pointing at the IK opening not fixed to it.

Also if you have the CAF in the grill or foglight and your in slow moving traffic your going to be directly sucking up lovely warm exhaust gases from the guys car in front

Not really because your not opening the throttle much if your in slow moving traffic and in anycase if your saying a wheel arch CAF is just as effective then that would have the potential to suck hot air in the same :rasp:

 

[Oliver_K4M]

I saw a plus of 3km/h in top speed under same circumstances with the feed in the foglight.

 

[AmDaMan]

Isn't wind turbulence an issue with a fog feed though? I've read that an area such as the wheel arch is more effective. Plus who ever said turbulence from the wheel is talking rubbish as it's behing an arch liner..

 

[LeeP86]

i can't see any reason why having an air intake in the wheel arch could be more effective than facing the air flow off the fog light, i cnt think of any reason why wind turbulance would be better than a direct feed of cold air.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

I don´t think porsche engineers are stupid...

"Astride the tall uprights of the fixed, carbon-fiber rear wing sit forward-facing ram-air inlets, which are a nice nod to the original, 993-based GT2."

see: http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature/first_steer/Motive_First_Drive_2008_Porsche_GT2.shtml

 

[franx]

bit of physics, could be wrong here ;

i think when there is turbulance in the air coming in, it might be less dense because of a larger amount of particals moving around very quickly; hence turbulance but when you've got a steady/constant airflow it will be more dense ; more particals "steady" in one place.

Temperature is a large issue so it has to be as far away from the heat of the engine, but i do'nt think from the front/fog as it will be too turbulant.

A place like behind the wheelarch will have relatively cool air, and not so much turbulance.

 

[Neil G]

these cars like constant airflow, forcing air in there is'nt going to help

I was also thinking of placing one in foglight but dirt+water got me worrying. Eventually people with more technical background told me about the airflow being best when it comes from a place where it's constant (example wheelarch, original setup) .
With the foglight CAF you'll be getting a lot when speeding, but when slower it'll be less so not ideally constant..

I've been fiddling with different airinakes this week and really the original setup does it best, BUT a little bigger size CAF or even removing one did even better.

When for example trying an open filter (carbon heat-shield trumpet) system right at the front bumper/grill i lost bigtime torque, sluggish throttle response and fuel milage went terrible. I could see the fuelgauge go down on hard driving..

so too much air was NO GOOD, my experience anyway..

This is discussed to death, just thought i'd share my findings

Agree

All this ramair BS is marketing made up to sell crap air ducts/tunbledrier piping and trumpets.

Fact is you have to be going silly quick for it to have a positive effect.

Been discussed before....a search will reveal all

 

[LeeP86]

its not bs and not marketing rubbish it works v well granted not at below about 30mph but above there it gives the engine more and colder air which then gives the engine slightly more power. if you look on nearly every single seater race car there is an air intake above the drivers head. i have spoken to all of my collegues and other people in my line of work including one of the chief mechanics for wsr/team RAC and all of them agree with me that having a cold air feed helps the cars performance.

 

[Fred@BTM]

agree it does help, but "ramair" does not occur until silly speeds