Cost of ownership - new v used

[MarkCup]

Over 4 years and 24k miles, with new bought using Renault's 4+ PCP finance package and used bought for cash. Difference isn't as much as I thought it'd be. Interesting exercise all the same.

I've spent the last few days playing with this and think it holds water. If anyone wants to challenge any of my assumptions, fire away...

If you're not bothered or think this is a sad pathetic waste of time, jog on. Thank you.

 

[Rob]

Now this is much more interesting... but don't most pay £199 PCM for their 200's?

 

[Martin_172]

on the uber cheap old deal but recently by the time you add cup chassis and recaros to a normal 200 you are closer to £300 than you are to £200 with a small deposit!

mark, i take it for servicing costs you just worked out a monthly average for servicing and consumables?

 

[MarkCup]

on the uber cheap old deal but recently by the time you add cup chassis and recaros to a normal 200 you are closer to £300 than you are to £200 with a small deposit!

mark, i take it for servicing costs you just worked out a monthly average for servicing and consumables?

See note 4. I allowed £750 for cambelt/major service and ancilliaries, and 4x £200 per annum for an annual service. For all other costs I've not included them, as in theory, they'd be the same on both (tyres, brakes etc. are all mileage related). No servicing costs on the PCP as, so I understand, it's all included.

So what I've done here is summarise only the cost elements that differ between used v PCP. The full ownership costs would be frightening at this mileage.

 

[MarkCup]

Now this is much more interesting... but don't most pay £199 PCM for their 200's?

PCP details I lifted from here - http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/model/new-cliorenaultsport/offerdisplay.aspx

I know there's potentially better deals to be had, but this was as good a starting point as any.

Anyone want to come forward with their monthly PCP cost/miles per annum allowance?

 

[Martin_172]

ahh right i see, i will never buy a brand new car again after the experiance i had with my 200, as i mentioned in another thread of yours, fuel, payment and depreciation alone cost me £1400 a month on an average over 13k, depreciation obviously not helped by the fact i had to trade in due to the massive issues i had with the car and not get a good price selling private.

I would be interested in some sort of comparison looking at estimated costs when buying 3yr old, 4yr old, 5yr old etc to see what the best age to go for is

 

[MarkCup]

ahh right i see, i will never buy a brand new car again after the experiance i had with my 200, as i mentioned in another thread of yours, fuel, payment and depreciation alone cost me £1400 a month on an average over 13k, depreciation obviously not helped by the fact i had to trade in due to the massive issues i had with the car and not get a good price selling private.

I would be interested in some sort of comparison looking at estimated costs when buying 3yr old, 4yr old, 5yr old etc to see what the best age to go for is

Simple answer to that is almost as old as is possible.

We know that depreciation is the single biggest factor besides fuel so until the maintenance costs outweigh the depreciation it's always more economic to buy old. Let someone else take the exponential depreciation early on.

Ultimately it all comes down to how much you want a car I think, but £80 a month, for four years, for a new car smell that lasts 3 months is a painful hit to take.

 

[dk]

Would a 200 cup really be worth nearly 9k at 4 years old, I find that hard to believe, that's over 50% residual, I think your looking at more like 7k aren't you as there's no way a Renault will be worth 50% of list at 4 years old.

especially as you have the used one as 10k for 2.5 years old, you saying you can sell it 1.5 years later for a grand loss effectively?

so I'd say the sums need to be adjusted, there won't be that much equity in the new one at the end of the pcp.

 

[Martin_172]

and this is the major issue with the majority of people, myself included up until a few months ago, they dont factor depreciation as a running cost, when in actual fact its the biggest running cost of any new car!

 

[Iain C]

We have a c class merc as a lease car at work. £221 a month. i couldnt believe how cheep that is.

 

[dk]

Also, what you can't really factor in, is that any faults the 200 develops, which will be highly likely for a 6 year old Renault, you need to pay, whereas on the pcp it will be covered by warranty, so it's not a straight forward comparison, peace of mind with having a warranty for the lifetime of the car you own it (4 years in this case) is very high up on some people's list, as is having a 4 yr old car at the end rather than a 6 1/2 year old car in the example above, it will feel and look newer, for those 2 1/2 years, it might have low mileage but might have had a hard life as a track car etc, or maybe it was driven 5 miles to and from work a day at 30 mph and never got to be properly warm on a journey.

a car from new, means you can be sure it's been treated right from day one, anything that goes wrong is dealt with etc, its less risk and more peace of mind, if it has recaros, they are likely to wear for example, new car not an issue etc etc.

so what I'm saying is you can't just compare figures on this comparison.

 

[Martin_172]

agreed to a certain degree however after my experiance with renault, if i could go back to my engine failure i would much rather have bought a new engine and fitted it myself at my expense to my 2 month old car than the warranty hastle i had, however thats a full different thread!

 

[Sir_Dave]

the major issue with the majority of people, myself included up until a few months ago, they dont factor depreciation as a running cost

How is that even possible lol. They do teach maths at school in Scotland dont they?

 

[Fred@BTM]

where are you getting that serviced? I'm putting my prices up!

 

[Gally]

How is that even possible lol. They do teach maths at school in Scotland dont they?

I'm guessing because they hand it back and start again?

 

[Martin_172]

How is that even possible lol. They do teach maths at school in Scotland dont they?

i didnt do maths at school mate. however after speaking to the majority of people i know with new cars most of which did do maths, go to uni etc, none of them consider depreciation as a running cost, they buy a car because its road tax excempt, best mpg possible, cheapest service plan etc etc etc everything is about cost, yet they buy it brand new compaired to the 10 sitting on the forecourt in the same spec/colour that are, 6months, 1 year, 2year old etc

 

[Sir_Dave]

Perhaps its accounting you need to do as well then, that covers depreciation iirc.

 

[dk]

Forgot to add, new car comes with breakdown cover too.

 

[Poopensharten]

How is that even possible lol. They do teach maths at school in Scotland dont they?

They clearly dont teach it in Engarland going by how tight you c***s are!

 

[Short Norman]

I've done a similar thing for our two cars. Ones a 9 year old 155,000 mile BMW 3 series and the other is a brand new abarth 500. My BM has cost me approx £170/month (servicing/depreciation/repairs/mot's/road tax etc). The abarth has cost roughly £265/month (servicing/deposit/finance/road tax).

Note: my running costs do not include fuel. Also the abarth is on a pcp deal.

 

[Munson]

Forgot to add, new car comes with breakdown cover too.

And also sometimes people like to do whatever the want, all the time, without living their lives by the restraints of money.

I'm not belittling Mark's work. Far from it, but bloody hell. Maybe I'm just lucky that I don't need to count every penny, but sometimes even others who don't, just do anyway.

EDIT: To clarify, IMO the guy appears to be obsessed with money.

 

[MarkCup]

Because accountant. I like efficiency. I like to use money efficiently so it goes further.

Right, so, so far this has fallen down because;

Both valuations for the used cars (the one bought new once it's 4 years old, and the one bought at 2.5 years once it's 6.5 years old) need refining.
Breakdown cover is not included.
Repair/maintenance costs need covering on the used car for 3.5 years as warranty will cover all (?) on the new car.

So, I'm going with £7,000 for the used Cup at 4 years old/24k miles, and £4,500 for the 6.5 year old 200 on 42k miles. I'll drop the servicing costs to something more reasonable and add an allowance for repairs/maintenance (still excluding mileage related consumables) and will add breakdown cover for the used 200 too.

dk - lots of justifications as to why the difference in cost is justified to you (and do feel free to carry on), but you're kind of missing the point of this thread/exercise. I have no interest in how people justify the extra cost themselves, merely with what that extra cost actually is. If it turns out to be negligible, even I might even go new again.

 

[dk]

Because accountant. I like efficiency. I like to use money efficiently so it goes further.

Right, so, so far this has fallen down because;

Both valuations for the used cars (the one bought new once it's 4 years old, and the one bought at 2.5 years once it's 6.5 years old) need refining.
Breakdown cover is not included.
Repair/maintenance costs need covering on the used car for 3.5 years as warranty will cover all (?) on the new car.

So, I'm going with £7,000 for the used Cup at 4 years old/24k miles, and £4,500 for the 6.5 year old 200 on 42k miles. I'll drop the servicing costs to something more reasonable and add an allowance for repairs/maintenance (still excluding mileage related consumables) and will add breakdown cover for the used 200 too.

dk - lots of justifications as to why the difference in cost is justified to you (and do feel free to carry on), but you're kind of missing the point of this thread/exercise. I have no interest in how people justify the extra cost themselves, merely with what that extra cost actually is. If it turns out to be negligible, even I might even go new again.

my counter to that then would be, did you buy new because you thought it would be cheaper (or the same cost) over the ownership period because of the deal you got?

As you are suggesting that you would only buy new again if the cost was the same or very close to what buying 2nd hand is? But surely people buy new cars for other reasons, such as the ones i mentioned, plus theres nothing like speccing a car yourself, picking it up with no miles on the clock and just having a new car.

I know that stuff can't be tangible, but its a massive part of the decision, whereas you are now suggesting your next purchase will depend on cost alone as to whether you go new or used?

Or am i reading that wrong?

Personally, i wouldn't look at the cost of buying new compared to second hand, if i can afford to buy the car i want as new, then i wouldn't even consider looking at a second hand one, only if the car i wanted was out of reach and the only way i could afford it was to buy it second hand. Thats me anyway. My last 5 cars have been new, i probably could have got 'better' cars if I had gone second hand, but i like being the first owner of a car.

Its interesting to see the figures anyhow, i just wouldn't base my car buying decision on them, so its interesting to see someone who would.

 

[MarkCup]

I know that stuff can't be tangible, but its a massive part of the decision, whereas you are now suggesting your next purchase will depend on cost alone as to whether you go new or used?

Or am i reading that wrong?

Kind of.

I know there's a whole multitude of benefits to buying brand new, but those benefits come at a cost.

I'm not saying that I'll only buy new again if the cost of new works out to be the same as the cost used. What I am saying is that if I feel the additional cost of a new car is worth it, I might go there again.

Intangible indeed - what I think the feel of a new car is worth is exactly that...what I feel. Many others will feel differently.

 

[gez 172]

These cars have hammerings and see a lot of track.

I wanted to buy one and have the proper feel of how a renaultsport should be like as standard, from new.

I didn't want to buy a second hand Incase it had been bumped or anything, leaving me with issues to sort out and not enjoy the car as much.

I went and did a trip to the south of France in the 200 a week after buying it, no hassle, just get in and go. When I had my 172 it was more of a 'to sort/ to check' list before going anywhere.

Peace of mind made me buy new, knowing no one had their hands on it before me.

I've never had a brand new car, probably won't for a long time after this one either, I've done it while I have no other outgoings on a house etc. It's my main hobby, and I love it.

 

[Bluebeard]

I can't see how anybody can use this as an exercise to decide on wether they buy new or used.

The £199 pcm 200 Cup deal was, imo, a no brainer.

Brand ew car, full warranty, no hassle just hand it back at the end, literally all you have to do is fuel it and insure it.

If that car was £299 per month, I'd have never considered it and gone for another used car.

Its not a decision that can be black and white as there are just too many variables... What the dealer is offering as a finance package etc etc.

 

[Rob]

Yep, even I'd be tempted by another £200PCM deal.

Peanuts really to drive a car with no worries for two years.

 

[MarkCup]

I can't see how anybody can use this as an exercise to decide on wether they buy new or used.

The £199 pcm 200 Cup deal was, imo, a no brainer.

Brand ew car, full warranty, no hassle just hand it back at the end, literally all you have to do is fuel it and insure it.

If that car was £299 per month, I'd have never considered it and gone for another used car.

Its not a decision that can be black and white as there are just too many variables... What the dealer is offering as a finance package etc etc.

I understand there are better deals available.

What was the deposit on your deal Daniel?

And was it over 3 years? At what mileage? Did it include servicing/maintenance? Was there a MGFV?

 

[Revels]

Regardless of the very specifics and picking it apart on either side, it really does show how much some people on here must owe on their cars.

Changing from one to another to another. I don't mean Dave and his endless BMW's but the people that financed a 172 to 182 to 197 to 200 etc. The final figures when you think how much they've lost via depreciation must be huge.

 

[Gally]

It will be but think how many just handed it back and moved on. All they've done is rent one for a while and then changed up and then up again.

I do agree though there would be some scary figures!

 

[Sir_Dave]

I do agree though there would be some scary figures!

I'd warrant that if those people worked the depreciation/finance numbers out accurately, they would cry into their RenaultSport fleece when they realised they could have bought a 911 Turbo for less money lol.

 

[p@blo]

The final figures when you think how much they've lost via depreciation must be huge.

Totally agree, quite surprising to see some folk don't seem to have factored this in either.

 

[Gally]

I'd warrant that if those people worked the depreciation/finance numbers out accurately, they would cry into their RenaultSport fleece when they realised they could have bought a 911 Turbo for less money lol.

Loller! My mates are the same, Clios, Corsas etc. Mental levels of depreciation. I learned a lot buying the last 2 cars. I'm sure a lot could learn from it and yourself Dave.

Not everyone wants a 10 year old Audi or Bmw that someone has sneezed in though.

 

[Chapppers11]

What's depreciation?

 

[Revels]

I didn't specifically mean the 200's as the £199 a month was a good deal.

I meant more when BillyBob got a 182 on finance. Then took it back and traded it in for a 197. Then did the same again to get a 200.

Obviously some people don't care or have enough money to be able to just do it and that's great. But when I was looking at 200's (briefly) to see a 200 on AT for 10k and then Renault expecting you to pay 18k was a bit of an eye-opener.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Obviously some people don't care or have enough money to be able to just do it and that's great. But when I was looking at 200's (briefly) to see a 200 on AT for 10k and then Renault expecting you to pay 18k was a bit of an eye-opener.

lol, thats why i ended up in a 197 (albeit for 3 weeks).

The new ('60 plate) 200 i wanted was £20k, but the '57 plate 197 with Recaros & 30k miles i ended up buying was £6.4k !!!

If id sold the 200 after 3 weeks like i did with the 197 i would have lost thousands, with the 197, i made £125 ...

 

[Bluebeard]

I understand there are better deals available.

What was the deposit on your deal Daniel?

And was it over 3 years? At what mileage? Did it include servicing/maintenance? Was there a MGFV?

£1500 deposit, £199 per month over 24 months, maintainence not included.

I only kept mine for a year though. I then sold it to R-Sport who cleared my finance and paid me the difference, about £700 from memory.

I think in total it cost me less than £3000 to own a brand new 200 for 12 months. I spent nothing else on the car.

I don't factor in fuel/servicing because whatever car I buy will need fuel and servicing during my ownership.

 

[Munson]

I think I've been quite lucky with my heap. Paid £28,500 and I think I could get between 20-22k three years later.

Although I've spent a trillion dollars on fuel, so...

 

[MarkCup]

Thanks Daniel, will crunch that through later.

Just realised I have a fatal flaw in all of this though...in that neither of the cars used in my calculation have Recaros fitted so they technically (according to CS) have nil residual value.

LOL

 

[Sir_Dave]

I think I've been quite lucky with my heap. Paid £28,500 and I think I could get between 20-22k three years later.

Although I've spent a trillion dollars on fuel, so...

How many miles do you do a year these days Roy? Bet your VPower card has a few points on it lol ...

FRS have great residuals though! Imagine if you'd bought a Meggy 250 for the same price :clown: