CTR. Why is it quicker

[andysport]

I dont understand why the CTR should be quicker than the cup, or 172 for that matter. Isnt torque responsible for acceleration and I believe the 2.0L engine in the clio has more torque than the 2.0L engine in the CTR (not by much). the clio is also 150kg lighter than the CTR therefore the torque per tonne is better. As for bhp per tonne I think the CTR has only 3 or 4 bhp more. surely this cant make the car quicker until top end. Why is the CTR quicker?!!

CTR - torque/tonne - 119 lb

bhp/tonne - 164 bhp

Clio - torque/tonne - 140 lb

bhp/tonne - 162 bhp

 

[Lee]

Judging by a guy I know who has one, its because the drivers are all maniacs!!!

Seriously though, in the real world out on the road there is nothing in it, the drivers would be making the difference. Or the size of his kahunas!!

 

[geordiepaul]

The CTR also has a 6 speed box with shorter ratios which will help!

 

[Dust]

Quote: Originally posted by geordiepaul on 26 June 2003

The CTR also has a 6 speed box with shorter ratios which will help!

I think thats all it is. The gearbox! If only the cup came standard with their 6-speed sequential box. byebye CTR.

 

[Lee]

Quote: Originally posted by Dust on 26 June 2003

Quote: Originally posted by geordiepaul on 26 June 2003

The CTR also has a 6 speed box with shorter ratios which will help!

I think thats all it is. The gearbox! If only the cup came standard with their 6-speed sequential box. byebye CTR.

And np steering lock!! I used to look a right idiot trying to park the GTi-6. That had more lock one way than the other!!

 

[papa?]

Dont forget its not the peak torque that gives you the advantage - its the even flow or torque through the rev range to give constant acceleration.

Variable Valve timing and all that mailto:cr@p">cr@p does make a difference...

& an extra cog or two in the GB also helps

 

[andysport]

both cars have VVT dont they?

Renault really should have put a 6 speed gearbox in the 172. I think it would have attracted more people to buy the car. After all the V6 has one.

 

[Vtec Abuser]

Quote: Originally posted by Rod Street on 26 June 2003


Judging by a guy I know who has one, its because the drivers are all maniacs!!!

Seriously though, in the real world out on the road there is nothing in it, the drivers would be making the difference. Or the size of his kahunas!!

Agree with you on the Cup vs CTR mate ( up to 110+ ). But not standard 172 im afraid.

 

[Cord-172]

I raced a CTR and I was gaining on him slowly no problem. We were both hammering it as we went from first gear off a roundabout along a sigle carriage way in Stevenage. I started off behind him and ended up beside him but I had to slow down and pull back in as there was traffic on the other side of the road

I only have an air filter and removed the spare wheel

They are definately fast and are probably faster top end. But this one wasnt all that....

 

[Vtec Abuser]

Sounded like he could drive quite well then. Problem with alot of people who drive them is that they change gear to early, which means they drop out of V-tec on each gear change. Which when racing something as quick as a Mk1 172 your going to struggle.

 

[RobFenn]

The CTR hasnt got better accel figures than the Clio so whats the confusion? It has 197bhp so top end is bound to be better.

-Rob

 

[Lee]

Quote: Originally posted by Vtec Abuser on 26 June 2003

Quote: Originally posted by Rod Street on 26 June 2003


Judging by a guy I know who has one, its because the drivers are all maniacs!!!

Seriously though, in the real world out on the road there is nothing in it, the drivers would be making the difference. Or the size of his kahunas!!

Agree with you on the Cup vs CTR mate ( up to 110+ ). But not standard 172 im afraid.

We tried it out on some slippery lanes. He was surprised I kept up. He thought my ESP was helping, but it didnt intervene once. I think he spent more time changing gear to keep the revs up!!

The CTR would be pulling away convincingly over 110.

I almost brought a CTR, but my g/f at the time was dead set against it. Im glad I went with the Clio as I think it suits the way I drive better.

Ive never got on well with V Tec engines. Plus I think I was looking for something with a more old school hot hatch feel. I thought the CTR would be like my old GTi-6 but the Clio felt closer. If only the Focus ST170 had a little more power!!

 

[andysport]

If only the Focus ST170 had a little more power!!

It has! its called the RS!

 

[telford_mike]

Quote: Originally posted by andysport on 26 June 2003


I dont understand why the CTR should be quicker than the cup, or 172 for that matter

The short answer is - it isnt. The CTR has more power - thats just half the story though. Ive been on track with CTRs and they have a fundamental problem - namely the steering. A 172 will brake better into corners and carry more speed through - this equates to a higher exit speed. The CTR will make some of this up on the straight but overall on most circuits the 172 would turn in a better lap time. Of course the cars are pretty close despite this - its still very difficult for a 172 to actually pass a CTR on a circuit, but its definitely quicker round the lap.

 

[Lee]

Quote: Originally posted by andysport on 26 June 2003


If only the Focus ST170 had a little more power!!

It has! its called the RS!

Not quite. The diff in the ST 170 is far better suited to normal road use.

If Id not been made redundant in January Id have a Focus RS, although for the type of driving I do a more powerful ST 170 would suite me better.

I can see an RS out the window now. Im still tempted to chop the Clio in for one. They look lovely

 

[RobFenn]

They certainly do, outside anyway. Though theyll be nothing when the new Focus Cossie comes!

-Rob

 

[wongy008]

telford mike

how is that possible when autocar tested the CTR to be 0.5 secs faster round the track then the cup which we know is faster thatn a std 172,

 

[Mikey16vClio]

Quote: Originally posted by papa? on 26 June 2003


Dont forget its not the peak torque that gives you the advantage - its the even flow or torque through the rev range to give constant acceleration.

Variable Valve timing and all that <A target=_blank href= "mailto:cr@p">cr@p does make a difference...

& an extra cog or two in the GB also helps

Sounds like papas got the real reason, but then again a V-Tec is known for late power delivery. Could be down to the fact that it revs to 8k is it? & when leathering it, it can keep in V-Tec mode continuously, however round bends this would be more difficult to do. Better built Honda engine simply produces more power and once rolling the weight disadvantage becomes less so IMO.

 

[andysport]

I remember a few months a go Autocar testeing out loads of hot hotches including the Mk2 172,civic type R, mini cooper s, leon cupra, astra turbo and a few more. the cars were tested in damp conditions around Castlecomb race course and the clio got the fastest lap time of them all. I guess in dry conditions it would be different, so I guess the clio has alot more grip.

 

[Mikey16vClio]

Honda probably hav less transmission loss aswell down to their build quality & precision.

 

[telford_mike]

Quote: Originally posted by wongy008 on 26 June 2003


telford mike

how is that possible when autocar tested the CTR to be 0.5 secs faster round the track then the cup which we know is faster thatn a std 172,

Who knows? A lot will depend on the track - some suit cars with power, some suit cars that can corner and brake well. I know from personal experience however that on a dry day at Donington Park a 172 will out-do a CTR. I suppose I should qualify that a bit more - My 172 was quicker than my mates CTR. This may not apply to all 172s or all CTRs, but Im more inclined to believe it than something I read in a car mag. The Cup, as you say, must be faster as it carrys less weight.

 

[BenR]

the CTR can just get a fair amount more work done per hr than the 172 engine can, even if it is dragging more weight.

And the k90 engine is in no means peaky, its just that the VTEC give a more of a change on the switch to the 3rd cam lobe, so proportionally it might feel peaky. At lower RPM it delivers jsut as any normal engine would.

and like papa said, its about teh ratio of torque stay and drop off compared to the increase/decrease in BHP production, so you can determine when is best place to swap cog.

 

[orlandopaulo]

gearbox.. and..

CTR 200hp that are realy about 210

172 172hp that are realy about 165

and tunning

172 + chip + filter + decat = 185-190hp

CTR + chip + filter + decat = 230hp

the difference until the 4th gear is not big.. but when you (like me with a 172) change to 5th you have to say bye bye. its a long gear.. being in a lighter car will help you a lot (200kg is an important diference), but near 200km/h air resistance becomes more important, and then youll need power, more power, and CTR has it

 

[Pugboy]

In my opinion, in standard trim, and having read reviews of both and raced them on the strip/road, there is very little in it in terms of either straight line or cornering.. a 0.5 secs/lap difference round one track could be down to the single run or the tyres suitablility for the conditions.

I feel the 172s engine is quite a bit more flexible so the need for extra ratios is not so critical... In terms of top end speed, the ctr gains an advantage because of the superior drag factor.

So there we have it, no more arguments.

Pugboy

 

[phil6180]

what about the CTR compared to the Clio Williams?

 

[jonnyboy]

If a 172 had a 6 speed gearbox it would be a motoring classic.

 

[SAX_MAN]

When you hit 6000 rpm in the VTEC its bye bye 172, believe me, ive driven a CTR and a 172 Cup and CTR was hugely fast. The acceleration when the 2nd cam profile comes on is awesome.

 

[Vtec Abuser]

Quote: Originally posted by RobFenn on 26 June 2003


The CTR hasnt got better accel figures than the Clio so whats the confusion? It has 197bhp so top end is bound to be better.

-Rob

Id like you to show me a road test where the 172 does 0-100 in 16.2 secs???

It all depends what were talking about here. Straight line accelaration, then as ive said, youve got to put your money on the CTR.

Round a track would be close, more so with a Cup. Wouldnt like to call that one. Ive got two vids and two magazine features which have the CTR quiker, but I still think it would be a close one. If it was wet. My money would be on the Clio. Cause mines awful when the roads are damp.

 

[MrBean]

I am not the worlds greatest driver, probably why these 172s toast me everytime I try.

I know when I am beaten. Possibly if I had some skill I might just catch one of these pocket rockets.

Oh well thats life. You win very little, and you lose more often. Gonna get me one of those CUPs soon as poss

 

[Jim172CUP]

anyone care to point me in the direction of a website that tells you all about torque and bhp, for the unknowing )

 

[telford_mike]

Quote: Originally posted by Jim172CUP on 26 June 2003

anyone care to point me in the direction of a website that tells you all about torque and bhp, for the unknowing )

This site is really good.

http://www.pumaracing.co.ukhttp://www.pumaracing.co.uk

 

[BenR]

in simple terms, torque is the power of the engine, BHP is measurement of the amount of work done an engine can do per unit of time, that site will tell you.

 

[visceral]

hang on a moment.....moment...get it....LOL.

CTRs are so quick because people like their Bread fresh!!

LOL - they are cracking cars, no doubt.....but who want Honda build quality.

 

[Vtec Abuser]

I do hope youre trying to say that Honda build quility is worse than Renault?

Cause if you are im going to need my sides stiching up!

 

[weyland]

CTR wins, but only just. Have raced many CTR in the clio and many clios when I had my CTR. By about 135 velocity, the CTR has 1 to 2 lengths ahead but cosidering there is a 4 - 6K price differential in real terms(30th ae ctr for example compared to supermarket 172) the moral victory always goes to the clio.

Secondly, the 2 are aimed to different sectors of the market, the clio is a supermini, the CTR is not. The Megane RS will be the competitor to CTR and FRS. If you want to compare hondas hot supermini to renaults, wait for the jazz type r.

On a side,I had a favourite color red CTR follow me in my 360 the other day on autostrada, tailhogging, though I did not oblige.

Bye Bye