enlarged throttlebody?

[mini-valver]

They taste good.

It's common knowledge that the TB is'nt a restiction, I just agreed. Hardly tea bagging.....

common knowledge to whom? because someone on the internet that "claims" they don't make any difference and everyone jumps on the bandwagon? amazing...

I've decided I'm now a car tuner, BecauseJesusSaysSo Technology Tuning (tm) is my new company. I've decided that I'm an NA Clio tuning specialist and that using swiss cheese (commonly found in supermarkets) in your airbox instead of the OE filter, inlet matching and a 5" straight through system will give you 100bhp at the wheels increase. It costs only £5k, I've not actually done it or physically proved it works, but what the f**k, it works because I say so

... give me strenght superman

So, I should'nt listen to the few follk on here that actually know what they're on about? GDI's throttle body kit as an example (Not a dig at GDI, if it were AWT,Yozza etc I'd use the respective company name) "claims" 208bhp through the cable Jenvey TB, Omex, cams and inlets. We all know this is'nt true, MarkM's car is an example, it was RR'd at under 200 IIRC after he had the map tweaked because Andy fucked it up. Does that not tell you something? The bigger TB makes jaff all difference IMO.

 

[mini-valver]

I love your mature (excuse the pun) approach to this though..........

 

[ja.jack]

Dear old mini-valver, I bet you are a decent fellow, same as Jesus. Our true foe is the tuner who tries to turn our heads with promises of increased performance that never turn out to be true.

 

[TheJesus]

common knowledge to whom? because someone on the internet that "claims" they don't make any difference and everyone jumps on the bandwagon? amazing...

I've decided I'm now a car tuner, BecauseJesusSaysSo Technology Tuning (tm) is my new company. I've decided that I'm an NA Clio tuning specialist and that using swiss cheese (commonly found in supermarkets) in your airbox instead of the OE filter, inlet matching and a 5" straight through system will give you 100bhp at the wheels increase. It costs only £5k, I've not actually done it or physically proved it works, but what the f**k, it works because I say so

... give me strenght superman

So, I should'nt listen to the few follk on here that actually know what they're on about? GDI's throttle body kit as an example (Not a dig at GDI, if it were AWT,Yozza etc I'd use the respective company name) "claims" 208bhp through the cable Jenvey TB, Omex, cams and inlets. We all know this is'nt true, MarkM's car is an example, it was RR'd at under 200 IIRC after he had the map tweaked because Andy f**ked it up. Does that not tell you something? The bigger TB makes jaff all difference IMO.

Well it depends, these tuning folk change their minds like their socks... BenR told me you cant get any worthwhile gains on a Williams head. I thought he knew what he was talking about so believed him... then Port Formance go and get 13bhp proven on an independent RR with before and after testing.
MarkM's car may not have made 208bhp, not all of them will, but in the thread it even says at 179bhp for a 182 they usually read 6bhp under... so if they read under and we apply some common sense, as all loss and gains will be relative, then surely that's not far off and takes into account not every engine is the same? If you're questioning Andy's mapping that's your's and Mark's opinion... I'll take the owner of Omex words over you, him and any other tuner on here and take the Pepsi challenge as mine runs perfect as a daily driver. Has done for the 12k I've done... speaks for itself really doesn't it? ... unless of course tuning monkey's broke into my car whilst I lay sleeping and remapped my car for me?

Going back to the single body, can you explain to me why the GDI demo car makes over 240bhp on single body?

Can I just point out at this stage that I have been to both AWT and GDI and found the former to be mainly all talk (not all torque)... I should really write up about the whole experience and the lies and bulls**t, but there's little point, as people prefer to be baffled with bulls**t and sl@g the true hard working enthusiast as they find them an easy target... doesn't bother me, Andy does as much trade as working hours allow (and then some)... just don't say I told you so when you go spend a load of your hard earned only to be left lied to and cheated

 

[mini-valver]

Because it uses an excel graph?

The 208bhp claim was made on the basis of RR figures taken from numerous cars and averaged so I and the rest of the forum have been led to beleive from previous threads? I can't map, so I'm only going from a previous experience of someone. After all, nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes so maybe Mark's was a one off, either way my point still stands.

I'd like to see a spec sheet and a RR of the GDI demo car as I find it hard to beleive 240 bhp......

 

[BenR]

i have a bigger tb courtesy of gdi and i love it, felt the difference in throttle response over the standard ph1 172 body straight away, the car just feels alot more lively!

I dont see whats so hard to understand.

Throttle area is hardly the main restrictive feature of the inlet system, as prooven by running a mk1 172 body on markm's and ross's car. However, a soddingly tight 90-100 deg bend right before the TB had a marked effect on the transitional flow of air into a throttle body.

If people care to use their brains they might realise the air intake restrictions imposed on planty of racing series, where their total intake area is smaller yet produce significantly more power.

Now, does a whopping TB decrease restriction? NO.....however the traight run of large bore intake piping with a bell mouth does.

Again, if anybody cared to think further than the one item in discussion, they might realise that air intriduced into the system (and that includes pre TB ducting) has a massive effect on total airflow available to the engine. A pipe of 'x' diameter will flow a peak flow capacity at any given depression, however with a bare open entry you wont even get close to that. There is a reason bell mouth design is still one of current interest to many as it is the first part of an induction system which comes into the air that will be processed, and it has a large determining factor over total airflow. All intake systems of the same size are not created equal.

As for increased throttle response, again.......think a bit harder and you might realise that a larger throttle plate has, for any given opening angle, a larger cross sectional area available to pass air. So, for the same 10% throttle opening on a small vs big throttle, you will notice more response as you are passing more air and making more power.

If people werent so blinded by their own ignorance, simply focussing on one area to try and make that factor look like the single most important component in a 'system' of extreemly complex contributing factors.

However, maybe some people need to say thanks to Yozzasport for comissioning the larger TB bellmouth adaptor and thinking up the ETCC TB idea in the first place then.

 

[TheJesus]

Because it uses an excel graph?

The 208bhp claim was made on the basis of RR figures taken from numerous cars and averaged so I and the rest of the forum have been led to beleive from previous threads? I can't map, so I'm only going from a previous experience of someone. After all, nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes so maybe Mark's was a one off, either way my point still stands.

I'd like to see a spec sheet and a RR of the GDI demo car as I find it hard to beleive 240 bhp......

who said it was? I think you need to stop listening to your people, as the 208bhp is "upto", not all and every car can get this, so why say that? If people have been led to believe that then I can only assume someone has told them that... I wonder who?

You can read all about the spec of the GDI car soon enough, but believe what you want, but it made 240 (well, it was over actually :rasp on the same rollers another 240bhp Clio did iirc

 

[AliasOmega]

how about forced induction from the use of a wing / bonnet scoop, going from a large intake area to the TB, ideal for when moving, though not too good for sitting still.

Then again, i only know a little about a little which ive picked up from working on fast jet aircraft etc.

Surely the ideal situation would be to fit a supercharger, enabling a fully compressed intake system.

 

[AliasOmega]

I could just imagine it, a pulley on the aux belt, connected to a shaft, across the engine to another pulley connected to the supercharger near the battery area, into the engine in the normal way.

Battery in boot for space etc.

 

[TheJesus]

i have a bigger tb courtesy of gdi and i love it, felt the difference in throttle response over the standard ph1 172 body straight away, the car just feels alot more lively!

I dont see whats so hard to understand.

Throttle area is hardly the main restrictive feature of the inlet system, as prooven by running a mk1 172 body on markm's and ross's car. However, a soddingly tight 90-100 deg bend right before the TB had a marked effect on the transitional flow of air into a throttle body.

If people care to use their brains they might realise the air intake restrictions imposed on planty of racing series, where their total intake area is smaller yet produce significantly more power.

Now, does a whopping TB decrease restriction? NO.....however the traight run of large bore intake piping with a bell mouth does.

Again, if anybody cared to think further than the one item in discussion, they might realise that air intriduced into the system (and that includes pre TB ducting) has a massive effect on total airflow available to the engine. A pipe of 'x' diameter will flow a peak flow capacity at any given depression, however with a bare open entry you wont even get close to that. There is a reason bell mouth design is still one of current interest to many as it is the first part of an induction system which comes into the air that will be processed, and it has a large determining factor over total airflow. All intake systems of the same size are not created equal.

As for increased throttle response, again.......think a bit harder and you might realise that a larger throttle plate has, for any given opening angle, a larger cross sectional area available to pass air. So, for the same 10% throttle opening on a small vs big throttle, you will notice more response as you are passing more air and making more power.

If people werent so blinded by their own ignorance, simply focussing on one area to try and make that factor look like the single most important component in a 'system' of extreemly complex contributing factors.

However, maybe some people need to say thanks to Yozzasport for comissioning the larger TB bellmouth adaptor and thinking up the ETCC TB idea in the first place then.

Ben, your post looks great and as usual the theory and arguement is great, but to be fair I'd have thought the people that make these things for the Clio know a bit more than a back street tuner that tells people what they need to hear in accordance to whatever product he is selling? Or is production of these larger bodies about to cease based on your findings?

I was always told more air is better... I'm no tuner and don't have my "big car words for baffling punters" book to hand, but it seems to make sense, hence forced induction :S... or is less air the new method?

 

[AliasOmega]

I see what you mean..

Larger TB = More air..

More air = More fuel.

More air & fuel =

 

[mini-valver]

More air isnt the problem!!! It's the inlet tract that's restrictive. Jesus christ.....

 

[ja.jack]

Was it not GDI who were comissioned by Yozzasport to develop the big TB and other mods that Yozza subsequently laid claims to?

 

[BenR]

omg i'm so bored.

F3, 235bhp on a 26mm hole...............go figure.

Is it the size of the hole, or how well you use it?

If a bigger TB is all thats needed to make whopping power, why wasnt the factory item made 70mm?............

Infact you've lost me.........who builds what for the clios? Tell them what they need to hear in accordance to what they are selling? Good thing i'm not selling anything along the lines of such things, or maybe i need to be?

 

[BenR]

Was it not GDI who were comissioned by Yozzasport to develop the big TB and other mods that Yozza subsequently laid claims to?

Yea, thats why they are such good friends now.

Either way, even if there was a commisioning, if you paid for the dev then it belongs to you correct?

I can remember fred showing me all the bits they had made by jenvey since they are good friends with whats his face at jenvey. And thats from the drawing to the first casting, not just some magical peice which they bought.

 

[AliasOmega]

ive heard them inline bathroom fans you can fit inline with your airbox are worth 40bhp according to the eBay seller...

how about a larger TB & one of these..thats gotta be good for 250bhp right.?

 

[RichMcc]

zero point in a bigget TB, its not a point of restriction.

I was waiting for that lol

 

[GordonD]

omg i'm so bored.

F3, 235bhp on a 26mm hole...............go figure.

Is it the size of the hole, or how well you use it?

If a bigger TB is all thats needed to make whopping power, why wasnt the factory item made 70mm?............

Infact you've lost me.........who builds what for the clios? Tell them what they need to hear in accordance to what they are selling? Good thing i'm not selling anything along the lines of such things, or maybe i need to be?

Some of us understand.

A bigger TB will give "better" throttle response at small openings. But at higher throttle openings its not the TB that restricting the airflow, its other things in the intake tract. So you don't change your peak airflow/power by increasing the size of the TB, you just get more horsepower at small throttle opening, and less additional horsepower by opening the throttle further. Which makes the car jerkier to drive in traffic. And if you did want that you could achieve just as easily with a cable-operated TB by changing the leverage, or on an electronic throttle with one of those electronics boxes that senses you pushing hard on the accelerator and opens the butterfly faster.

 

[Matt@Stealthsport]

I love these discussions.

 

[Andyman]

Check out the intake track and notice, no 90 degree restrictive bends :evil:

 

[TheJesus]

omg i'm so bored.

F3, 235bhp on a 26mm hole...............go figure.

Is it the size of the hole, or how well you use it?

If a bigger TB is all thats needed to make whopping power, why wasnt the factory item made 70mm?............

Infact you've lost me.........who builds what for the clios? Tell them what they need to hear in accordance to what they are selling? Good thing i'm not selling anything along the lines of such things, or maybe i need to be?

I was always told size matters Ben Either way, a larger TB would surely make more difference, otherwise how else are the people actually doing it and not just talking about it making these big powered engines?

I think you are starting to show you naivety though now, turbo's make more power, why didn't Renault put those on as standard?... coilovers make the car handle better, why didn't they put those on as standard? cost certainly wont be an issue for a company that size, make enough of something and it becomes cheap as chips. Economies of scale I believe it's called

There's those that talk and those that do, you obviously know a lot about these engines, but this just reminds me of the bullshit you told me about Williams heads. You always said it wasn't a point of restriction, no gains to be had etc, yet as soon as someone goes and actually does it you are straight behind, conveniently following the lead... sorry if you find this sceptical, but for all the theory (which sounds good) I'd prefer to believe the do'ers not the talkers.

 

[ben_p]

will someone please post the spec of this GDi demo car !!

ahhhh! what rollers did it make 240 hp on?

 

[TheJesus]

will someone please post the spec of this GDi demo car !!

ahhhh! what rollers did it make 240 hp on?

no, you will just have to wait and see

 

[ben_p]

thats gay!

 

[TheJesus]

sorry dude, no point me putting the spec up only to have a load of keyboard conans talk a load of shite about it... which is typically what happens. either way, it will be revealed publicly to the masses as and the haters can start another discussion... as lets face it, even though GDI go to the effort of actually doing these things people are still stupid and ignorant enough to believe someone that thinks because the theory is wrong it wont work... Fact and opinion are closely related, yet worlds apart.

Oh, also been informed that MarkM's car is on stock body too, not the enlarged one... thought he was quiet tbh...

 

[drhowser]

the answer to this is perfectly simple. someone needs to take a stock car, then do a set of before and after runs, with the normal and enlarged body. then we can all compare the two curves.
i have no experience of this on a 1*2 engine. but, not that it has any real relevance, i know that it helps on the v6's.

 

[Dash]

i know that it helps on the v6's.

So I hear. Not that I would ever be having a much larger throttle body though.

 

[drhowser]

my flatmate is in the middle of building one now, it will have a porsche body.

 

[MarkM]

Oh, also been informed that MarkM's car is on stock body too, not the enlarged one... thought he was quiet tbh...

You called

Your arguments as per usual are weak with no theory or evidence to back them up.

GordonD and BenR would always get my vote in a technical discussion.

I tell you who is quiet... AndyGDI surely he should be on here showing us the spec of his single TB 240bhp monster

 

[TheJesus]

Oh, also been informed that MarkM's car is on stock body too, not the enlarged one... thought he was quiet tbh...

You called

Your arguments as per usual are weak with no theory or evidence to back them up.

GordonD and BenR would always get my vote in a technical discussion.

I tell you who is quiet... AndyGDI surely he should be on here showing us the spec of his single TB 240bhp monster

Weak? How so? Because some geek on the net that people believe's s**t doesn't stink says so? I've never thought you were a smart bloke, but had you just above stupid... may have to take a rain check on that one though...

Let's put things into perspective shall we? You have on one side someone that says it wont work because of blah blah blah reason, so hasn't actually done it. Then you have someone that has gone ahead and done it and made a car that produces the goods in what I like to call "the real world".

In more simple terms:
If you had an apple and an orrange in front of you and Ben told you that the orange is in fact an apple you would probably believe him, he'd make a technical arguement that you dont understand therefore dont question it. Someone then comes along and actually tries the thing only to find out that it is indeed an orange... you question it regardless based on a blind ignorance.

Andy will be quiet on this, he doesn't post on here and hasn't for about a year, so hardly conclusive to your point is it? He could come on here and "talk" about it, but what difference does it make, you'll argue the other way regardless of him actually having done it. Believe the theory or believe in results

 

[MarkM]

Believe the theory or believe in results

I believe both. Can you provide either?

 

[MarkM]

Believe the theory or believe in results

I believe both. Can you provide either?

Let me provide you with some results

From the Jenvey (they make throttle bodies ) website -

"Similarly, in an experiment to curb the power of 270 BHP touring car engines, we reduced the size of the single throttle body to less than 44mm (1520 sq mm) before there was any noticeable reduction: a 75mm body has three times the flow."

So from this I think you can conclusively say that a few mm bigger will make no difference

 

[TheJesus]

I believe both. Can you provide either?

Let me provide you with some results

From the Jenvey (they make throttle bodies ) website -

"Similarly, in an experiment to curb the power of 270 BHP touring car engines, we reduced the size of the single throttle body to less than 44mm (1520 sq mm) before there was any noticeable reduction: a 75mm body has three times the flow."

So from this I think you can conclusively say that a few mm bigger will make no difference

race car application to road car application... come one Mark, use your brain son, two completely different things entirely... also I didn't know Clio's were tourning cars? Besides, that says to curb power... not increase :lolup: strangely enough the larger body is also Jenvey... odd they make something to decrease power?

as said, the results are there, but you can read about it soon enough yourself sweetie

 

[drhowser]

^ may be a different application, but it's still a n/a internal combustion engine?

 

[MarkM]

race car application to road car application... come one Mark, use your brain son, two completely different things entirely... also I didn't know Clio's were tourning cars? Besides, that says to curb power... not increase :lolup: strangely enough the larger body is also Jenvey... odd they make something to decrease power?

Its a four cylinder 2.0 engine with a single throttle body regardless of whether its in a touring car or a clio.

Shall I spell it out for you?

The engine makes the same power with a 44mm body as it does with a 75mm body even though the 75mm body has 3 times the flow. It proves the TB is not the point of restriction until it is reduced down to that size. You can make it as big as you want but unless you modify the rest of the intake to make it flow better you wont gain anything.

 

[Dash]

Perhaps uprated cams help provide extra flow which an enhanced body would make use of?

 

[MarkM]

Perhaps uprated cams help provide extra flow which an enhanced body would make use of?

How do you think you extract 270bhp from a 2.0 engine?

 

[Andyman]

I pm'd a lad on here a year back who had a enlarged Jenvey TB fitted and he claimed it made bugger all difference.

Going by the fact tuners arnt exactly falling over themselfs to promote a larger TB on a 172/182 this would certainly match up to the reports of it not worth messing about with

 

[ludaprix]

I pm'd a lad on here a year back who had a enlarged Jenvey TB fitted and he claimed it made bugger all difference.

Going by the fact tuners arnt exactly falling over themselfs to promote a larger TB on a 172/182 this would certainly match up to the reports of it not worth messing about with

i have a larger jenvey tb, and along with other mods it DOES make a noticable difference to the drivability of the car - imo of course

 

[TheJesus]

race car application to road car application... come one Mark, use your brain son, two completely different things entirely... also I didn't know Clio's were tourning cars? Besides, that says to curb power... not increase :lolup: strangely enough the larger body is also Jenvey... odd they make something to decrease power?

Its a four cylinder 2.0 engine with a single throttle body regardless of whether its in a touring car or a clio.

Shall I spell it out for you?

The engine makes the same power with a 44mm body as it does with a 75mm body even though the 75mm body has 3 times the flow. It proves the TB is not the point of restriction until it is reduced down to that size. You can make it as big as you want but unless you modify the rest of the intake to make it flow better you wont gain anything.

who said it was a 2.0? you made some spurious reference from a different car and engine to try and make a point and provided no point of reference and make out like it's conclusive

what I can't quite work out then, is these larger throttle bodies that dont work, then why are they still being manufactured and used all over the world on Renault as well as other engines? It seems strange that some tin pot back street tuner knows more than the companies spending millions developing these things and distributing them in large quantities? So really your 2.0 point above is a load of b****cks isn't it, as it's not the same engine, all engines and applications are different (be it road, race, rally) and common sense applied I'd rather believe that a massive company with people with real qualifications, millions in the bank for dev work know more about this than you... otherwise they would be the ones on here flogging kits to the unsuspecting public