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EPAS fault help



Taras2016

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 cup
Hi there guys and gals

ive just converted my clio 172 cup over to epas and ive came across a couple of issues but not sure what to do next as i cant find anyone that has the same issue.
the first problem is that when moving the car in the garage at full assistance the system doesnt fully work but cuts in and out but once on the road the car drives fine until i take a slow speed corner the system just cuts out and then in again but on the road i only have it set about 3/4 assistance. my first instinct was that the motor maybe faulty but i dont really want to change parts if its something else has anyone experienced this fault before if so what was your symptoms and how did you rectify it. Thanks Taras
 

Taras2016

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 cup
ive done some more checks and found that the alternator when charging is 14.5 volts but when under full load it does 13.1 volts should i expect higher voltage?

also ive found that when the epas is on full assistance or low assistance the motor is only receiving 9 volts does anyone have any figures i can compare this too as i would expect to see 12 volts. would this indicate that the ecu is not allowing full power and could be at fault?

if anyone has any further advice it would be much appreciated
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
@incy-spider

No different to when I had it. Stationary the wheels are too hard to turn for the epas and under high load in cornering. @Mbeau drove my car and can attest to how ridiculously heavy the steering is, granted mine is probably heavier than most due to my suspension geometry.

 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Hi there guys and gals

ive just converted my clio 172 cup over to epas and ive came across a couple of issues but not sure what to do next as i cant find anyone that has the same issue.
the first problem is that when moving the car in the garage at full assistance the system doesnt fully work but cuts in and out but once on the road the car drives fine until i take a slow speed corner the system just cuts out and then in again but on the road i only have it set about 3/4 assistance. my first instinct was that the motor maybe faulty but i dont really want to change parts if its something else has anyone experienced this fault before if so what was your symptoms and how did you rectify it. Thanks Taras

it’s like I just read my own post, having the exact same issue. I run a roll centre kit and a quick rack so eliminates the HPAS pinion in the rack for much more positive steering.

like you it’s great driving normally, but at slow speeds rushing the steering I get tight spots and when parallel parking its hard work



also did the same checks as you regarding voltage.. I actually went a leap further today and ran the diagnostic line from the control box into my obd port so I could read what the computer is seeing on clip… I found at full assist the computer still thinks it’s doing 14km/h and 700rpm

so I believe that should be 0mph to achieve more assistance, I’m going to ask BTT to send the vid I did to their guy who makes the controller kit to confirm this is the lowest they can trick the computer into reading.

But could just be asking to much from the setup with wide tyres, geometry setup etc. Actually thought about piggybacking two steering computers together for some more AMPS 😂😂
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1069.MOV
    200.3 MB · Views: 0

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
So today, I fed the speed signal into the EPAS computer to zero the speed when stationary, as previously it sat at 14kmh at full assist.

Feels lighter when turning the steering stationary already, next up is to fully integrate it into the vehicle systems.. need a speed signal next


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Taras2016

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 cup
So today, I fed the speed signal into the EPAS computer to zero the speed when stationary, as previously it sat at 14kmh at full assist.

Feels lighter when turning the steering stationary already, next up is to fully integrate it into the vehicle systems.. need a speed signal next


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
so what your saying is it sounds like the epas controller is not allowing the assistance to be set to 0 mph which means the controller is at fault but in my case i would need to wire in the obd port to the steering ecu so i can check if mine is doing the same have you got the pin layout so i can wire it in thanks
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
That’s interesting. Is there no way to get it so it’s setup the same as it is when fitted to the dci? I’m assuming there’s some controller/ecu for it that must just do all the adjustments automatically. Can that not be fully retrofitted?
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
So today, I fed the speed signal into the EPAS computer to zero the speed when stationary, as previously it sat at 14kmh at full assist.

Feels lighter when turning the steering stationary already, next up is to fully integrate it into the vehicle systems.. need a speed signal next


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is why I question everything. People have been doing this conversion for years and not looked deeper into why it cant cope in certain situations. It didnt take long for me to remove it because of how much lag and lack of power it had.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Pin 7 on the OBD port to pin 15 on the controller… really simple it’ll then communicate to any good code reader.

I need to do some more tests and get the RPM signal in which sounds quite easy using the Gen90, unfortunately the RPM to the dash is CAN signal so not straightforward.

I can also patch into the steering angle sensor but not sure that’s going to help. I found earlier on a very brief test drive that the assistance decreases with speed but think the RPM needs to be there too otherwise the steering felt odd.. I’ll have a play and report back!

it can all be pretty much fully integrated but may be a waste of time.. at least with this setup. If I go down the 197 or Meg column route at least it’ll all be there for that too and can do away with the variable switch kit all together.

I’m just not sure how I’ll fit the column in with full dash in and all the cowlings looking right.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Pin 7 on the OBD port to pin 15 on the controller… really simple it’ll then communicate to any good code reader.

I need to do some more tests and get the RPM signal in which sounds quite easy using the Gen90, unfortunately the RPM to the dash is CAN signal so not straightforward.

I can also patch into the steering angle sensor but not sure that’s going to help. I found earlier on a very brief test drive that the assistance decreases with speed but think the RPM needs to be there too otherwise the steering felt odd.. I’ll have a play and report back!

it can all be pretty much fully integrated but may be a waste of time.. at least with this setup. If I go down the 197 or Meg column route at least it’ll all be there for that too and can do away with the variable switch kit all together.

I’m just not sure how I’ll fit the column in with full dash in and all the cowlings looking right.
so what your saying is it sounds like the epas controller is not allowing the assistance to be set to 0 mph which means the controller is at fault but in my case i would need to wire in the obd port to the steering ecu so i can check if mine is doing the same have you got the pin layout so i can wire it in thanks

That’s interesting. Is there no way to get it so it’s setup the same as it is when fitted to the dci? I’m assuming there’s some controller/ecu for it that must just do all the adjustments automatically. Can that not be fully retrofitted?
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
This is why I question everything. People have been doing this conversion for years and not looked deeper into why it cant cope in certain situations. It didnt take long for me to remove it because of how much lag and lack of power it had.

You’re right. I’m not sure I buy the whole extra resistance thing. How much more resistance can a 1x2 realistically have over a dci? Surely there’s been the odd random who has fitted 1x2 hubs/suspension setup to a dci. There’s not stories of them having issues all over the internet. How much resistance would you need to overpower the motor. It’s got to be something in the conversion that does it
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
You’re right. I’m not sure I buy the whole extra resistance thing. How much more resistance can a 1x2 realistically have over a dci? Surely there’s been the odd random who has fitted 1x2 hubs/suspension setup to a dci. There’s not stories of them having issues all over the internet. How much resistance would you need to overpower the motor. It’s got to be something in the conversion that does it

Worth having a good crack at working it out I’d say, if I get a good result I’ll share whatever I’ve done


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
Worth having a good crack at working it out I’d say, if I get a good result I’ll share whatever I’ve done


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m half tempted to buy a dci, fit my 182 running gear to it and seeing what happens 😂
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
You’re right. I’m not sure I buy the whole extra resistance thing. How much more resistance can a 1x2 realistically have over a dci? Surely there’s been the odd random who has fitted 1x2 hubs/suspension setup to a dci. There’s not stories of them having issues all over the internet. How much resistance would you need to overpower the motor. It’s got to be something in the conversion that does it

I can’t speak for the dci, but I have 2 182s, one is completely standard bar lowering springs, the other is heavily modded. I can turn the standards wheel with engine off with 1 hand. The other I struggle to turn with both hands.

But this problem is happening to people without drastic changes to the suspension geometry, so you are probably right it’s more the conversion than anything.

Mine is too much for standard hpas too 😁It would dart left and right because it would take so much pressure to turn.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
So now I have RPM signal and speed signal.. steering feels much lighter parallel parking, and I believe that now the RPM signal is there the computer can calculate the correct assistance MAP level according to speed. I’m yet to be able to give it a good test as the roads are horrendously slippery and 372hp with a quick rack is a bit of a handful!

I may actually revert back to the standard ratio rack and pinion which I’ll weld to make solid to eliminate the 2 piece design which causes a lot of wondering about and vague feeling. so could soon have a brand new PMS quick rack for sale.. will update when I know more!
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1137.MOV
    120.8 MB · Views: 1

Taras2016

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 cup
So now I have RPM signal and speed signal.. steering feels much lighter parallel parking, and I believe that now the RPM signal is there the computer can calculate the correct assistance MAP level according to speed. I’m yet to be able to give it a good test as the roads are horrendously slippery and 372hp with a quick rack is a bit of a handful!

I may actually revert back to the standard ratio rack and pinion which I’ll weld to make solid to eliminate the 2 piece design which causes a lot of wondering about and vague feeling. so could soon have a brand new PMS quick rack for sale.. will update when I know more!
thanks for the previous info ive now found out that my ecu is also showing 15kph when on full assistance so i would say that the epas controller is not fully working. so in regards to what youve done now where did you take the speed and rpm signals from and have you got any wiring diagrams i can use.thanks
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
All working perfectly now, I’ve put the standard rack and pinion back in and pinned the pinion to eliminate the torsion bar which causes wondering steering with EPAS. The steering now feels lovely and light stationary and slow speed then automatically lowers assistance as you go faster corresponding to speed and RPM signal.

for speed signal I went from pin 1 on the black connector to the stereo.. (violet wire) to pin 9 of the steering computer.

then for the RPM it’s nice and easy on mine as I run Gen90 and used the tacho output on pin 55 to pin 19 of the steering computer.

not sure how to obtain an RPM signal on the standard ECU yet! If anyone knows please advise…
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Yup, serves a purpose to activate the motor and maybe for some people that’s okay… but it seems most people are very underwhelmed by it, and actually it seems a lot of misconceptions about EPAS having less fell than HPAS have formed because of it whic totally understandable if you’ve had to suck up the crappy little box of tricks as the only option.

just took mine for a blast and it feels absolutely spot on, now like OEM and without the worry of failing HPAS pumps, over heating oil etc etc so mission accomplished. Bar spending money on 197 columns, quick racks, controller boxes, etc etc! 😡

so setup is… integrated EPAS with standard rack and pinion just with the pinion pinned to make solid (one piece) cheers for all the help guys hope this helps other people too!
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
Awesome effort. Feeling much better about doing mine now then. I haven’t ordered a box yet as they were out of stock. would you suggest just not bothering or do I still need it to activate the motor?
 

Beauvais Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
I found that the motor is capable up to 75nm of torque, I roughly measured that in my unit which is slightly easier to turn than on the road it was nearly 40nm to turn. So technically it should be fine even with my suspension geometry.
To confirm, youve done away with the controller and have a fixed oem system? So if you were to add caster, it would just calculate the torsion bar angle and add more power to combat the added resistance now?
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
I found that the motor is capable up to 75nm of torque, I roughly measured that in my unit which is slightly easier to turn than on the road it was nearly 40nm to turn. So technically it should be fine even with my suspension geometry.
To confirm, youve done away with the controller and have a fixed oem system? So if you were to add caster, it would just calculate the torsion bar angle and add more power to combat the added resistance now?
yeah, I found the ratio of the quick rack messed with the system too much.. that’s defo the limitation of the MK2 EPAS but using standard rack ratio should work fine.
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
First of all what ECU do you have mate?

Running the standard one. The speed signal obviously won’t be an issue from what you’ve said. The rpm might be but there must be one of the wires that goes up to the dash clocks I could use.

Edit: looks like pin 1 on ecu and/or one of the coil pack wires would work
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Running the standard one. The speed signal obviously won’t be an issue from what you’ve said. The rpm might be but there must be one of the wires that goes up to the dash clocks I could use.

Edit: looks like pin 1 on ecu and/or one of the coil pack wires would work
Yeah the one to the dash is a CAN signal, so no good. I didn’t get to look at the pin outs of the standard ECU.. but as long as you can see the correct RPM in the steering computer 👌

also, I have a spare steering computer and plugs so could pin you up the connector so you don’t need a controller box? I’ll label the wires if it helps… all depends if you can find the RPM signal
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
Yeah the one to the dash is a CAN signal, so no good. I didn’t get to look at the pin outs of the standard ECU.. but as long as you can see the correct RPM in the steering computer 👌

also, I have a spare steering computer and plugs so could pin you up the connector so you don’t need a controller box? I’ll label the wires if it helps… all depends if you can find the RPM signal

Looking at the pinouts, pin 1 is ignition coil 2-3 control which surely must be some form of rpm based signal to get the ignition cycle right. If not then pin 70 is TDC engine speed information which again sounds promising. One way to find out though!

That sounds great to be honest. The column has arrived today though and pic is below. I think I’ve got the computer so as long as that’s all I need I should be able to pin them up. So from the above, pin 9 on the computer plug goes to the stereo feed, pin 19 to one of the ecu pins that does. Live and earth feed to computer, live and earth to column then what about the rest? Just bin them?

10EDDE61-9D3C-4178-AB63-4C35A6AB4736.jpeg
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Looking at the pinouts, pin 1 is ignition coil 2-3 control which surely must be some form of rpm based signal to get the ignition cycle right. If not then pin 70 is TDC engine speed information which again sounds promising. One way to find out though!

That sounds great to be honest. The column has arrived today though and pic is below. I think I’ve got the computer so as long as that’s all I need I should be able to pin them up. So from the above, pin 9 on the computer plug goes to the stereo feed, pin 19 to one of the ecu pins that does. Live and earth feed to computer, live and earth to column then what about the rest? Just bin them?

View attachment 1576328
Nice, you have the connectors, looks like they cut the loom a bit short, but should be okay.. yes as above. switched live - feed from the ESP switch is nice and close, earth…

big power feed from the battery. I put a hefty bulkhead terminal on mine

pin 15 to diagnostics port pin 7 - not needed to be permanent but good for checking readings.

do you have the pin outs for the steering comp? I’ll post up pic tomorrow if not?
 
  172
Funny how you find useful snippets in random threads.

For something completely unrelated to EPAS I’m taking vehicle speed from an AC wheel speed sensor then using a voltage divider & capacitors to get it down to a 5v DC signal… so this violet wire sounds promising.

Ditto, I’m using ECU pin 1 or 2 (can’t remember which, I’m sure they’re the same just for the opposite pair of cylinders) for RPM. It’s conducting power not data so you need something to do some signal processing. It’s ~2v then spikes to 0 or 12v (depending if your device is pulling up or down) when the coil pack fires. So if you do 60 divided by the time between each pulse you get RPM.
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Funny how you find useful snippets in random threads.

For something completely unrelated to EPAS I’m taking vehicle speed from an AC wheel speed sensor then using a voltage divider & capacitors to get it down to a 5v DC signal… so this violet wire sounds promising.

Ditto, I’m using ECU pin 1 or 2 (can’t remember which, I’m sure they’re the same just for the opposite pair of cylinders) for RPM. It’s conducting power not data so you need something to do some signal processing. It’s ~2v then spikes to 0 or 12v (depending if your device is pulling up or down) when the coil pack fires. So if you do 60 divided by the time between each pulse you get RPM.
I wondered if there is any kind of CAN to RPM interfaces out there? I’d imagine so?

edit.. https://www.canm8.com/can-bus-interfaces/rpm-pulse-interfaces/canm8-rpm.html
 
  172
Yes, lots! CAN to 12v analogue, CAN to PWM etc.

Do you know what format Gen90 pin 55 output is?

Come to think of it, if it’s the same controller (is it? I don’t know) where does a DCI get it’s RPM signal from?
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Yes, lots! CAN to 12v analogue, CAN to PWM etc.

Do you know what format Gen90 pin 55 output is?

Come to think of it, if it’s the same controller (is it? I don’t know) where does a DCI get it’s RPM signal from?
Good point!! More than likely the crank sensor? They are basically the same across the Renault rage. So probably a 12v square wave?

Same from my pin55 possibly, I don’t know with out a scope
 

SteveC_1879

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
That interface would definitely work. The crank sensor is probably the better option thinking about it. I’ve found a wiring diagram for a dci but it just says “to ecu” against that pin for rpm and I can’t find a pin out of the dci ecu which isn’t much help.

Out of interest, why does it need the rpm signal? Speed must be the important one to change resistance so could it operate without rpm?
 

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
That interface would definitely work. The crank sensor is probably the better option thinking about it. I’ve found a wiring diagram for a dci but it just says “to ecu” against that pin for rpm and I can’t find a pin out of the dci ecu which isn’t much help.

Out of interest, why does it need the rpm signal? Speed must be the important one to change resistance so could it operate without rpm?
It uses the RPM signal to engage.. so when the engine isn’t running the steering computer won’t operate.. this isn’t essential and with the little box tricking it it works all the time with just the ignition on.

but the main reason is the different assistance maps within the steering computer need both the speed and RPM to work out the assistance perfectly. I found when just having a live speed signal from the ECU and a tricked RPM signal from the box the steering felt awful.

It surely wouldn’t have the option to see exact RPM if it was only to activate the steering computer but if you struggle you could try and see what you think?
 


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