Factory / Ideal Toe Settings for 182?

[miketheman2k]

1) What is Renault's figure for toe-in/out on the 182 cup?

2) What are people's prefered toe-in/out figures and why?

3) What is the stock camber?

4) Again, what do you guys run and how is it?

Not as important, and more out of interest, do those with coilovers run their front dampers softer than the rears to aid turn in? Or do you keep it the same front to back?

Answers on a postcard please

 

[edde]

(for two wheels) Toe out 1,2' +-5'
Camber is -0 degrees 45' +-30' thatw with a dimention of 118mm.
To check your car you need to measure from the ground to the center of the wheel and then take away the distance from the ground to the bottom of the lowest point on the front subfrema (ie where the suspension arms attach to).
Running more (ie bigger negative) camber at the front helpd on treack but it makes for bad tyre wear runnug in staright lines the old Cup race cars used to run 3degrees negative but onb the road they'd be useless you'd restroy the inner of your tyres.

 

[MATT BLACK]

pm me your address and i will send you out a fully detailed data sheet on the clio 182 suspension set up explaining everything you need to know

 

[White16valver]

Is the same information available for valvers / williams?

Looking to willy track mine soon so the correct settings would be very much appreciated!

 

[MarkM]

Had mine setup today at Northampton Motorsport.

-1.5deg camber

0 toe in/out (wheels pointing straight ahead). I originally had 20mins toe out, the car feels less nervous on the straights now due to less bump steer (the reason given by the bloke setting it up).

Feels nice very sharp turn in. Seems to tramline quite a bit and follow the camber in the road.

edde mentioned tyre wear which according to NM is accellerated with neg camber but made doubly bad if running neg camber with toe out. He said for the road the setup he used is a good compromise.

 

[miketheman2k]

Thanks Mark. Any understeer on wet roundabouts after the setup was done?

 

[MATT BLACK]

Is the same information available for valvers / williams?

Looking to willy track mine soon so the correct settings would be very much appreciated!

yep

 

[miketheman2k]

Cheers j3ned, I've PM'd you.

 

[MarkM]

Thanks Mark. Any understeer on wet roundabouts after the setup was done?

under power yes, which you cant really avoid in this weather. but feels quite neutral very good grip.

In his opinion he thought the best ride height would be

front = 600mm
rear = 610mm

measured from the road to the wheel arch (through the centre line of the wheel) maybe this is another thing you need to consider

 

[miketheman2k]

My car is virtually the same ride height difference front and back (lower, but equal), so the caster should be virtually the same as yours.

 

[Fred@BTM]

2) What are people's prefered toe-in/out figures and why?

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS slight Toe in on the front of a high powered clio, otherwise it'll be all over the shop

rears toe in slightly stock, but ideal is 100% straight, but i prefer a tiny tiny tiny bit of toe out on the rear, makes the rear a bit drifty!!

 

[Ali]

Indealy parallel caster is the best option imo. ^ tho as fred says toe in will give you a little mid corner understear but you'll get far more lift out the bend. Only down point is the Snowplow effect, you will scrub off straightline speed.

 

[miketheman2k]

Will increased negative camber give you better turn-in than toeing out slighty?

 

[White16valver]

Is the same information available for valvers / williams?

Looking to willy track mine soon so the correct settings would be very much appreciated!

yep

Does this mean I can PM you for a datasheet?

 

[George k]

As per my answer for a similar query relating to the Trophy, providing that the dealer copied the part of the manual relating to the Trophy, then the settings are;
Toe out 0.25' +/- 0.17' mine came at 0.10' toe-out
Camber - negative 0.17' +/- 30' Mine came at 0.30'

The Challenge manual specifies cars run 10' toe-out and camber of 3.40'.

Based on a variety of other cars that I have worked on for road and track, I think that as a reasonable compromise the car probably needs about 1.30' to 2.00' negative at the front - it already has 1.30' at the rear. The toe setting is a matter of preference and is also affected by the scrub radius and ackermann setting. Often toe-in seems to give better feel, but does not actually improve handling. It is interesting the GDI recommend 2.00' negative and 0.20' toe out. Similarly rear toe is open to much discussion; on the track a lot of production saloons run rear toe-out, but it can make the car prone to switch lanes all on its own - reckon that the standard setting, also recommended by the Challenge manual of 0.20' is a safe baseline.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i don't like toe out on a clio, feels too nervous

 

[miketheman2k]

Thanks George, as always - very helpful

Sorry for such an obvious question....but when you write 1.30' you're saying 1 degree + 30 mins?

 

[MarkM]

Thanks George, as always - very helpful

Sorry for such an obvious question....but when you write 1.30' you're saying 1 degree + 30 mins?

I think it does but because there are 60mins in a degree it is 1.5degs.

 

[miketheman2k]

Perfect, just wanted to make sure 1.3' didn't mean 1.3 minutes and not 1.5 degrees....oh c'mon, I'm tired!

 

[Andy GDI]

As per my answer for a similar query relating to the Trophy, providing that the dealer copied the part of the manual relating to the Trophy, then the settings are;
Toe out 0.25' +/- 0.17' mine came at 0.10' toe-out
Camber - negative 0.17' +/- 30' Mine came at 0.30'

The Challenge manual specifies cars run 10' toe-out and camber of 3.40'.

Based on a variety of other cars that I have worked on for road and track, I think that as a reasonable compromise the car probably needs about 1.30' to 2.00' negative at the front - it already has 1.30' at the rear. The toe setting is a matter of preference and is also affected by the scrub radius and ackermann setting. Often toe-in seems to give better feel, but does not actually improve handling. It is interesting the GDI recommend 2.00' negative and 0.20' toe out. Similarly rear toe is open to much discussion; on the track a lot of production saloons run rear toe-out, but it can make the car prone to switch lanes all on its own - reckon that the standard setting, also recommended by the Challenge manual of 0.20' is a safe baseline.

just to clarify.... I dont think I have ever recomended 2deg neg on the clio unless you "want" it.... I do run this myself, but for normal road driving its a little much....

I would say 1.5 deg neg is fine for normal use with some "spirited" driving..

when you lower the front and give the car negative it tends to toe in so the toe out is really to compensate for this.... (this is what mark fish suggested and I trust his opinion on this)...... of course as usual with all these things its down to the drive style and use.... so there are no definatives.... just options.

Andy

 

[George k]

Firstly, apologies to Andy, I did not intend to misrepresent your advice re camber. Certainly I have found 1.30' negative quite acceptable on the road and even on my everyday diesel (i.e a very nose heavy car) it has not had any adverse affect on tyre wear - which is completely even across the tread.

His other point about the change of toe in/out with ride height is important. AFAIK all road cars do this - known as bumpsteer - to reduce the sneeze factor - sometimes it is possible to re-engineer the steering arms to reduce it and so improve the response - but rarely is it completely eliminated - particularly on strut type suspension.

As far as toe settings are concerned most modern FWD cars run what is known as negative scrub radius (intended to improve stability under braking) and although my own measurements seems to suggest that the Clio may be different, it is logical to run toe out to counter-act the effect. Similarly changing camber could work best at a different toe setting - hence the need for trial and error.
The important point is that lowering car will call for the toe setting to be checked and you may find a different setting better. Strangely enough on one car it felt better with more toe than standard and also with less - the normal setting was the worst!! This could have been down to the fact that from the factory it came on four different makes of tyre!

 

[Fred@BTM]

i've driven several clios with toe out, never liked it, Yoz's was set with toe out, and it was HORRIBLE, all over the place

i run mine with a tiny amount of toe in

 

[Andy GDI]

I would like to hear someones opionion that had "actually" raced a small hatch... anyone?

 

[George k]

Andy, My info is probably out of date, but in prod saloons the quickest Golfs used to run toe out at both ends. At the rear it needs to be done in very small increments as it can make the car very unpredictable. I would guess that these sort of settings are best for relatively slow and twisty circuits rather than those with long open sweepers.
As I have only just joined the Clio fraternity (from RWD MX5 - wife's car) I shall talk to my new fellow FWD colleagues once the sprint/hill-climb season starts and report back.As you have seen I have also quoted the base-line settings from the Challenge workshop manual which seem quite conservative, but then they are probably a compromise for different circuits.
Regards

 

[Andy GDI]

one of my customers runs some mental geometry on his clio.... neg 3.5 deg at the front.... rears are 2 i think.... its alot anyhow...

he races overseas now and its VERY fast on track...

i will see if i can get his data for you, needless to say he can pull 1.3 g in the corners...

 

[izibizi]

I'm enjoying this tread very much. I was experimenting quite a lot this year.

When installing H&R coilovers, handling changed a lot on my clio, the back end was glued to the tarmac and I had massive understeer. So I opened rear track (using shims) to 30' toe-out and found the car much more neutral on track and faster through corners! On the road car feels twitchy and sometimes I need to rely on ESP.

On fronts I run 0 toe-in and find it very gut balance!
I plan to try toe-out on track but I prefer slight toe-in on road, because car is more stable, less tramlining and more accurate.

I wanted to highlight another aspect that is the trackwidth front, rear and the difference between them. The 172CUP has 4cm wider front track and surely "allows" more back toe-out than regular 172's and 182's which have smaller differences.

Would like to hear your feedback and maybe some more Challenge workshop manual advice.
Regards

 

[miketheman2k]

I installed H&R camber bolts yesterday. I suspect (obviously I'm lacking the appropriate equipment) that I was either running neutral or even positive camber since lowering the car on coilovers. The car was almost certainly toeing in as well.

So now I've dialled-in around 1.5 degrees of negative camber and a slight toe-out and the difference is massive. As soon as I went round the first corner it just bit so much harder. It certainly picks up more tram-lining so I may reduce the toe slightly, but its cool news that the coilovers are fine and I can mess around with the settings to get the ideal setup for me.

 

[BenR]

George, your pretty much spot on with all your ideas, the clio is no mean any different from your average FWD hatch and the setups that many like to use as a base and move on from.

Mike, listen to george, he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Andy GDI]

George, your pretty much spot on with all your ideas, the clio is no mean any different from your average FWD hatch and the setups that many like to use as a base and move on from.

Mike, listen to george, he knows what he's talking about.

I will agree with that as well ben, it makes sense

 

[caymanr26]

so Mike did you ever get to an 'optimum' setting with these?

 

[PYE21]

How much adjustment is there in the standard suspension for above (182 cup)?
I take it you need camber bolts to adjuster the camber?

 

[BenR]

there is only toe adjustment.

So yes, to alter anything else you need camber bolts upfront and shims for the rear.