fitted injectors and coded. power feels laggy now? :(

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

been told by a renault diesel mechanic. he said it sounds like a bag of f**king bolts. tapping/knocking away and the noise not clearing as the revs go higher.

he was the original guy that did the leak of test to find out my old injectors are fucked. it drank fuel on those like no tommorow so i can only presume on what he has said of ' bore wash ' from an overfuelling injector/'s

current milage on this is 105,800 if that helps.

i cant see pistons rings failing that early on a diesel surely!

getting andy to do a full compression test tommrow as something is bad, really bad.

worst case, new second hand engine.

this one has had a head change but that willnot make a difference as its ran with it for 7k miles

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Smell the oil first for fuel. Give it a whiff of easy start if oils okay then if no joy put some oil down the bores, let it settle and try a compression test again.

havent smelt the oil yet. gave it some easy start and all it does is chuff with loads of white smoke coming out the back. no effort to start, just starter motor turning it over.

the guy who had it before me said it had a running problem which was supossedly fixed by renault for a pricey sum of £1200

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Yeah id wait see what the compression test shows ! hopefully something basic mate ! fingers crossed for you and keep us in the loop mate hope you get it sorted !
Could be something basic yet i'm jumping a little in the deep end i guess ! if the noise didn't clear on revving sounds bad!! like i say compression test will tell all , good comp more than likely a sensor possible cam crank or something ! bad compression, rip the head off had a butchers !!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

can i save the bottom end IF compression comes back as fooked on 1 or more cylinders? or is it safe to just swap to a known to run very well engine ?

 

[MG cup]

So from what you have said the noise went away with new injectors which points towards diesel knock and the 100 injectors you had fitted have washed the bores and now there's little compression and you've re-fitted those shitty injectors that was causing the knock.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

So from what you have said the noise went away with new injectors which points towards diesel knock and the 100 injectors you had fitted have washed the bores and now there's little compression and you've re-fitted those s**tty injectors that was causing the knock.

to some extent yes. the noise went really quiet ( when fitted the dci 100 injectors ) making it sound like every other dci i have been in

i have asked earlier on if 65kw is 80 or 100 hp as thats what it says on the box. so im now in two minds if i did buy 100's or 80's and the company f**ked up the lable'n.

i havent re-fitted the f**ked injectors, i have pinched the spare set i have off my other spare engine ( top end left as bottom end was crank damaged )

i'll report back after a compression test tommorow. and i am going to contact renault personally to ask them what new injectors i have ( going off the man codes )

 

[Martin_172]

dci 80 and 100 injectors are the same mate its the 65 that has different injectors.

100 just runs higher fuel pressure along with the bigger turbo

 

[MG cup]

65kw is about 90bhp.

going by what you have said again I think you can rule out injectors as you have swapped from Delphi (dci 80) to Bosch (dci 100) so I can't see there bring confusion there.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

thank god for that. so the new injectors cant have done anything to make other problems.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

So from what you have said the noise went away with new injectors which points towards diesel knock and the 100 injectors you had fitted have washed the bores and now there's little compression and you've re-fitted those s**tty injectors that was causing the knock.

This ^^
Maybe i missed but i was under the impression that you fitted the injectors its knocked and never stopped? did it go off after fitting the 80s? cause i thought it never ran after ?

And regards to saving , depends mate it might not even come to that but basically depends if the rings are worn or the block is worn, ive known people fit new rings jobs a goodun !
And ive known people fit a over sized piston etc!

Personally if i was working on it get a compression test see what the results hold , if there is a cylinder down on comp , then rip the head off and have a gander , could be a valve stuck open or bent (youd normally hear through exhaust or inlet though, could be rings etc !

If you arent seriously mechanicly minded though , if a cylinder is down , it may be cheaper to source a second hand lump as a good runner ! because if your paying someone take the head off to find knackered rings you still will prob be better buying a second hand lump

But as said at the moment dont stress about all that get a comp test done and see what it comes back with as like said it may be something simple yet

 

[Martin_172]

i think the confusion is possibly coming from mk2 DCi's (all of them) being delphi and mk3 DCi's being Bosch as far as i know but its been years since i played with them

 

[RSTuning]

Rings will probably be stuck if you have no compression. Generally the 1.9 dci's are worse for that though

 

[MG cup]

i think the confusion is possibly coming from mk2 DCi's (all of them) being delphi and mk3 DCi's being Bosch as far as i know but its been years since i played with them

That explains it then, I thought it was funny when the op said he was switching from delphi to bosch as fuel systems are always a one manufacturer deal plus bosch injectors typically don't need coded where as the delphi's do...and they are 2 totally different shapes of injector for common rail usually anyway.

 

[Fred@BTM]

borewash on a diesel?

 

[MG cup]

Not bore wash as such but it can affect compression Fred.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

the box they came is missleading. reading it again the stuff on it is all wrong. 65kw, bocsh dci 100 injectors.

mart has just expained the mk2's run only on delphi. the new injectors have the power connector down under the leak off.

where as the mk3's have connectors above ontop.

whats the reprogram disk ment to do? as SRS had trouble originally to get the clip computer to run it.

need to go back to square one. and work on from there before i start pissing people off trying to help. confusing myself aswell now

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

qualified plank from renaults diesel devision said that it might have bore wash. diesels are built like tanks internally so your guess is as good as mine.

need to get this compression thing looked at first.

 

[Scrooge]

The new injectors will be delphi as Martin said, they just need installing and coding correctly. They should run on the standard map.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

is it glow plugs out or injectors out to do a comp test on dci's?

 

[MicKPM]

whats the reprogram disk ment to do? as SRS had trouble originally to get the clip computer to run it.

Renault themselves haven't used Reprog "discs" in years now. Who is doing the work, an actual dealer?

"Reprog" is the method by which Renault reprogram the various ECU's on your vehicle. There is no control over what can and cannot be done as its pretty much an automated process involving a specific file that the CLIP/Reprog software uses to work out a config and maps your car.

There are loads of files for various vehicles, engine platforms and specific configs and these base files used to be stored on CD's which would be sent out as periodic updates. Updates are now however stored online and are downloaded via RenaultNET and CLIP automatically downloads the most up-to-date and relevant file for your vehicle when needed. Anyone using actual disc based files is most likely using a clone and is installing out of date config files.

Mick

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

coventry renault dealers used or tried to use the reprogram disk. srs tried using clip on its own which managed to do it.

 

[MG cup]

is it glow plugs out or injectors out to do a comp test on dci's?

Either or, glow plugs is easier if accessible and your sure your injector nozzles aren't shagged.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

comp done. only a tinny drop on 2 cylinder - 1 and 3. but nothing to stop it running.

renault in derby where my car is now, ( dad called in a favour from an old freind that works there )
they have looked at it, done comp test, done a smoke test ( passing smoke through engine and cranking without injectors plugged in to check for HG or mani leaks ) which came back as all good.

they put my knackered old injectors in and it ran but really dodgy idle and Eml light coming on raising the rpm to over 1000rpm

then tried the new injectors and managed to get it running without easystart. altho they have found out that with the new injectors, if the car is left for an hour or two, the fuel feed pipe from the tank seems to empty until the pump drags it back. they have checked the fuel lines and fuel sender unit for air leaks and it hasnt got any.

they have now told me to get onto the company that supplied the injectors and get them to exchange my ' new ' injectors for another set.

then try on from there.

so it looks 99.9% fuel related and not compression

 

[MG cup]

Air leaks are almost impossible to find, emptying the fuel lines and using that smoke machine at pressure is a good way. Id say its possibly the the small o-rings in the fuel feed pipe speed connection or have they checked and lubed the small o-rings on the injector fuel return hoses?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I was always told, that if you change injectors, you should put new pipes on.

 

[Adam G]

I was always old.

 

[MG cup]

I was always told, that if you change injectors, you should put new pipes on.

Delphi injectors are supplied with high pressure pipes iirc Tony although that's good practice if not.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

new pipes got fitted ! f**k putting the old pipe work back on.

swede - they took all the fuel lines off and put a bung in one end, and pressurised the pipe ( one by one ) and they said all of them hold pressure.

dont know if they have inspected the quick connector rings, which i pressume the ammount of times they have been off, its a possibility they are now fucked !

any other things i can suggest they do? they will have the car til next week when my dad goes up to fetch it.

 

[MG cup]

Like i say its a hard one to find, greasing all the quick fit fuel connections with a non harmful grease is a good start. The few times I got a chance to use them smoke machines was good, if your testing anything you have to be sure its a clear path with no check valves etc. i.e checking a cooling system for leaks, thermostat has to be removed to work right.

They have done a combustion chamber/manifold check with smoke from what you said, they haven't run a pressurised smoke check on all fuel lines "IN PLACE" testing them separately doesn't really check the pipe ends that are usually the bad points. Its key the fuel has to be removed, these machines work on about 1bar and will struggle to prove anything with fuel in there.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

i'll get them to do that lot then. i'll get them to change the fuel filter again aswell, as i know thats a common problem to drag air in.

thanks for all the help. muchly appreciated!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

made some progress today. renault desided to take all the fuel feed lines off from tank to filter and back, replaced them with normal black rubber fuel hoses and connected to filter with jub clips. managed to get it started but its still not going like it should, renault took it for a drive and they said they have never had such a struggling slow dci.

now iv been reading up, theres a screw on the side of the fuel metering valve on the HP pump, would adjusting that create more fuel pressure or is that just a locating screw?

asking this stuff as i would like to have a few back up plans to try ' cure ' the problem

 

[MG cup]

Presuming its all running and starting fine now with no fuel draining back etc, have they tried re-flashing the ecu or trying another ecu after that gadgy had a play with yours?

It's a fully electric solenoid on them HP pumps, ECU decides all. No old school mechanical tweaking of the fuel pump/pressures I'm afraid with common rail

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

they have flashed the ecu back to the status of original settup.

still has abit of a problem to start.

dam it, i just wondered as theres a flat head screw on the side of the soliniod / metering valve.

getting there slowly. also had my cam/crank sensors changed to elliminate those. fuel rail has been tested to see if that was faulty and isnt. pump is working as should, injectors firing as should. just still lacking loads of power.

they have also noticed my engine fan never kicks in, only when aircon is on.

 

[MG cup]

Fan is just probably the switch.

Have they done an injector leak off test, drove the car while monitoring live data of pump pressure and compared it against the norm at certain revs etc. Do they have an AFM on dci's?

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

leak off test done, nothing or very little coming out of any of them.

live data monitoring i think they are doing tommorow, will have to check. surely they must off as its standard practice to do that at a renault dealers.

mk2 dci's dont have a AFM / MAF ( if same thing )

i have an air temp sensor on the airbox outlet to turbo that it.

 

[MG cup]

Yeah I meant MAF /AFM

if injectors are fine, engine has good compression and the pumps receiving correct fuel, turbo is working as it should and egr is good it must be the control side.i.e ecu,pressure sensors or your HP pump itself.

Does your car have 3 pumps. Lift pump, charge pump and HP pump? I have seen similar sluggish problems when the charge or the lift pump are tired and some management systems don't show a pre HP pressure and no fault codes, you have to manually check. It should be 3bar iirc, that might be Bosch fuel systems though.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

dci's are vac fed. two pipes from tank pick up unit, one feed and one return, they both go to the fuel filter, then there are 2 more pipes, one feed the HP pump and the other is the return from the pump.

One fuel pump on the whole car. stupid design tbh but it works.

egr isnt on my car anymore, its connected still but the actuall pipe work has been re made to bypass the egr unit. and the egr collector pipe from exhaust minifold welded up.

we thought it was the ecu fucked when it all started playing up, but renault tested it and its still working as should.

the car wont flag any fault codes up so its mechanical related or something thats un sensored

 

[MG cup]

It's hard to tell without seeing, if the cars starting and running but has a lack of power then you would think turbo or fuel pressure somewhere. It would usually bring up some kind of fault code after a run if it isn't working right, it might not point you in the right direction though. Have the 2ci c2i or whatever there called been re input for those injectors.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

probably not. im sure theres more to it than just coding injectors. they must have to set other things up aswell?


turbo is alright mate, its near new only done around 4k

im starting to think the fuel pressure is not right for normal running conditions.

i hate common rails !

 

[MG cup]

You would be surprised how much coding delphi injectors will do, especially on cars like the ford tdci's, I would guesstimate on the Mondys there's about a 20-30% drop in power over time. Read the codes off the side of the injectors input them and bobs yer aunt. Takes 15mins.