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Group N & 197 cams - graphs



@Josh

@Josh

  Clio 172 & BMW 335D
Hi

does anyone have any graphs to show group n timing and 197 cams?

Currently run group n only and running 181bhp, potentially need more power next year if I decide to race.


my current graph is attached - mapped by Chris at EFi and work done by @bloke
 

Attachments

  • 7D0E5AE7-DE1D-494D-8C51-FFF04F5F042D.png
    7D0E5AE7-DE1D-494D-8C51-FFF04F5F042D.png
    2.9 MB · Views: 315
@Josh

@Josh

  Clio 172 & BMW 335D
Don’t want this to turn into a thing about my car and it’s current power, it’s more than capable and very fast and fits in its class perfectly.
 
@Josh

@Josh

  Clio 172 & BMW 335D
497adam said:
What supporting mods have you got ?

So currently to fit my race specs it’s pretty standard

v6 air box
182 manifold + Milltek exhaust
Group N & Map (obviously)

@497adam


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
 
David172

David172

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 M135i
I have 197 cams and custom timing (not sure if grp N) and 192bhp. Similar mods to yours except standard airbox and 200 cel cat.
 
Eddie555

Eddie555

ClioSport Club Member
  Q7 2018 & 172 Cup.
197 cams with 8degree advance on inlet timing. 172 mani and Ramair cone filter..Mapped at Efi.
ce17bc7828acaf1c0c51d82e05da6406.jpg


Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
 
Darryl_1983

Darryl_1983

ClioSport Club Member
  RB 182 Cup
The results for GrpN and 197 cams always looks pretty good, when looking at the before lines and gains etc. But at the same time i've seen plenty of Clio's running 185bhp and 165ftlb on standard timing and cams from EFI with the usual breathing mods, ie exhaust, induction, decat.

I understand the Torque is delivered better with GrpN timing making it more useful, but i'd be pretty interested in seeing a set of graphs comparing 197, grpN and a mapped Clio alongside each other with similar supporting mods to see the difference.
 
VenomUK

VenomUK

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Is EFI the place to go for Clio tuning then? I live in Gloucester in the SW of England unless are just as good or better places down this end?
 
Eddie555

Eddie555

ClioSport Club Member
  Q7 2018 & 172 Cup.
VenomUK said:
Is EFI the place to go for Clio tuning then? I live in Gloucester in the SW of England unless are just as good or better places down this end?
Click to expand...
Yes, Chris is a wizard. I live Brum and have made the Journey 3 times upto EFi. I wouldn't go anywhere else..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
 
jameswrx

jameswrx

ClioSport Club Member
I wonder if my car is legit power, I’ll dig the graph out but it supposedly makes 185. That’s a 172 with decat system, induction, bigger throttle body (can’t see this does bugger all?) port matched inlet & remap.

It feels to have way more torque lower down than my completely stock 172 but if anything the std one feels better right at the top end for some reason (Maybe because it has less power lower down and it has that step over 5k)

My modded car feels really good at initial throttle inputeven from under 2k but just wish it’d pull harder at the top.

Looking at the graphs they die at 6,5k but the 197 cams hold better but plateau there. Does a 197 engine have better heads and manifold and able to gain where a 172 plateaus?

Just always felt the 1*2 lacks something in that pull to the top.
 
JamesBryan

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
jameswrx said:
I wonder if my car is legit power, I’ll dig the graph out but it supposedly makes 185. That’s a 172 with decat system, induction, bigger throttle body (can’t see this does bugger all?) port matched inlet & remap.

It feels to have way more torque lower down than my completely stock 172 but if anything the std one feels better right at the top end for some reason (Maybe because it has less power lower down and it has that step over 5k)

My modded car feels really good at initial throttle inputeven from under 2k but just wish it’d pull harder at the top.

Looking at the graphs they die at 6,5k but the 197 cams hold better but plateau there. Does a 197 engine have better heads and manifold and able to gain where a 172 plateaus?

Just always felt the 1*2 lacks something in that pull to the top.
Click to expand...

197 head is better than the 1*2 yeah.
 
Coops Mk1

Coops Mk1

ClioSport Club Member
  Lots of Scrap...
My spec:

- phase 1 60k engine (stock internally bar cams)
- A/C and Power Steering deleted
- 197 cams with 8 degree inlet advance
- 197 injectors
- 182 exhaust manifold
- single box 2.25" system
- RS2 Inlet with stock cable throttle body
- EFi remap

As you can see, flat torque curve, pulling power right up top with peak at 7600rpm, limiter was set to 7800 (didn't want to go higher as balls out enough on stock rods/rod bolts as it is plus power dropping off then)

dino.jpg
 
@Josh

@Josh

  Clio 172 & BMW 335D
Thanks all, so as expected the combination of group n & 197 cams probably won’t work or be beneficial.
Thanks for the graphs have to way up the options and see what’s best... maybe just try and loose 50kg from the car haha
 
Coops Mk1

Coops Mk1

ClioSport Club Member
  Lots of Scrap...
no idea, think its about 5 degrees r****d on exhaust and similar advance on inlet but that's just from looking visually at a picture of the tool used
 
jameswrx

jameswrx

ClioSport Club Member
Coops Mk1 said:
My spec:

- phase 1 60k engine (stock internally bar cams)
- A/C and Power Steering deleted
- 197 cams with 8 degree inlet advance
- 197 injectors
- 182 exhaust manifold
- single box 2.25" system
- RS2 Inlet with stock cable throttle body
- EFi remap

As you can see, flat torque curve, pulling power right up top with peak at 7600rpm, limiter was set to 7800 (didn't want to go higher as balls out enough on stock rods/rod bolts as it is plus power dropping off then)

View attachment 1505611
Click to expand...

Now that looks like the sort of graph you’d want on a clio when you go to all the trouble of modding! very nice.
 
JamesBryan

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
Touring_Rob said:
Does anyone know what group N timing actually is as an offset from standard timing in degrees? Or is it still a closely guarded secret 🤦‍♂️
Click to expand...

Similar to 197 cams I think, but with 7 degree advance on intake and 7 degree retarded on exhaust.

Slackening the pulleys off when at TDC actually gets them pretty close when the cams spring round from the valve spring tension 😅
 
Robbie Corbett

Robbie Corbett

ClioSport Club Member
JamesBryan said:
Similar to 197 cams I think, but with 7 degree advance on intake and 7 degree retarded on exhaust.

Slackening the pulleys off when at TDC actually gets them pretty close when the cams spring round from the valve spring tension 😅
Click to expand...

Cool, annoyed I didn't do it when I did the belts. Do you happen to know if Chris @efi has the group N timing tool? Wondering if I could book in and quickly adjust timing when I get there....
 
Robbie Corbett

Robbie Corbett

ClioSport Club Member
Coops Mk1 said:
My spec:

- phase 1 60k engine (stock internally bar cams)
- A/C and Power Steering deleted
- 197 cams with 8 degree inlet advance
- 197 injectors
- 182 exhaust manifold
- single box 2.25" system
- RS2 Inlet with stock cable throttle body
- EFi remap

As you can see, flat torque curve, pulling power right up top with peak at 7600rpm, limiter was set to 7800 (didn't want to go higher as balls out enough on stock rods/rod bolts as it is plus power dropping off then)

View attachment 1505611
Click to expand...

Thats a lovely flat torque curve!
 
497adam

497adam

ClioSport Club Member
  clio 172 phase 2
Touring_Rob said:
Cool, annoyed I didn't do it when I did the belts. Do you happen to know if Chris @efi has the group N timing tool? Wondering if I could book in and quickly adjust timing when I get there....
Click to expand...

As far as I know he doesn’t. I bought a tool and Birchdown down did my belts using it, then straight to Chris for mapping


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
incy-spider

incy-spider

ClioSport Club Member
Touring_Rob said:
Thanks mate!
Click to expand...

No problem, I was told these settings by @NorthloopCup so a good source!

Chris at EFI did comment that they were quite extreme so could be that the accuracy on the tool was a bit too exact and could maybe do with .5 less but we like extreme.. it just meant he had to add a lot of fuel midrange as it liked to go lean.. but results were great, it was actually 189.7 but for some reason we had an earlier print!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Robbie Corbett

Robbie Corbett

ClioSport Club Member
incy-spider said:
No problem, I was told these settings by @NorthloopCup so a good source!

Chris at EFI did comment that they were quite extreme so could be that the accuracy on the tool was a bit too exact and could maybe do with .5 less but we like extreme.. it just meant he had to add a lot of fuel midrange as it liked to go lean.. but results were great, it was actually 189.7 but for some reason we had an earlier print!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Great result - thanks very much. Any ideas on what power it was at before?
 
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