If you own a modern Clio, it's likely you are a crap driver. Discussion.

[Wobba]

Such a shame, i actually agreed with most of your points from the OP, but your posts since then just make me think your just a keyboard warrior like all the other fools

Sorry, merely responding to others comments. I just wanted to stir the grey cells a bit with a decent discussion.

Glad you agree though

It would be good to hear from people who have had accidents with more modern cars and try to see if the driver aids aided or hampered their accident.

 

[fUbAr]

How about calm down girls and boyz! Many younger drivers have not had any opportunity to drive in the current adverse conditions, they just need a few weeks of driving in snow and ice and they will be fine and adjust OK.
I agree that a lot of so called driver aids ABS, ESP etc in snow are of little use.
As a car driving club I would have thought the best thing to do would be to encourage our younger/ less experienced drivers and pass on skills and knowledge---- not rubbish them.
MY simple advise for driving on the snow is:-

• Not too fast , but not too slow either
• Look ahead and plan braking and turns
• Look aheads and plans braking and turns-- worth repeating
• Easy on the brakes and throttle
• If you get a chance on a deserted snow covered car park provoke your car a bit--- feel what happens when it gets out of control
• Feel the warning signs of loss of control-- light steering, vibration of wheels losing traction
• Going up hill--- keep going where possible
• Down hill slow down well before, 1st gear to get maximum engine braking

very good tips... and I'm sure that most of the people in this thread agree with your first paragraph too.

 

[fUbAr]

It would be good to hear from people who have had accidents with more modern cars and try to see if the driver aids aided or hampered their accident.

ESP helped lessen the severity of my accident last year. Without it, parties would have been seriously hurt...

 

[realnumber 1]

i put my clio into a fence due to abs, i tried the old let off reapply but the abs kicked in way to soon then it was too late, paint scuffed

So you tried to create a manual version of ABS on a car with ABS then blame the crash on ABS.

PMSL

 

[Josh220]

I think one of the main things is also older drivers (who happen to have drove older cars with no driver aids) will also have had more experience and opportunity to learn.

That may be a bigger factor than the car?

It's like they say, once you pass your test, then you learn how to drive.

Also, very good tips there joker182.

 

[Wobba]

Good discussion. I must say the Clio is very very easy car to understand/drive/control on normal roads without the adverse weather and if unprovoked its a delight to drive in snow. (Can be a laugh too!)
I've been driving 5 years with a clean license, I learnt in the winter; having a slight understanding of car control, and my driving instructor was a legend. I just wish everyone had the option of doing this.
IMO I think driver aids are excellent, as a one off drive the sheer lack of driver aids on a my old man's Mk1 Golf bring the most enjoyment and add to experience.

I'd agree the Clio is not a bad car to learn control on snow. I used to practice in a couple of R5 turbo's, but when they came on boost it was not easy to say the least. I got used to it though but in real world situations and not in practice you had to be very careful.

4WD was good fun and a lot easier but in the heavier Subaru the back end would just snap out and be a lot harder to catch, even with more power available.

 

[Daniel]

I'd agree the Clio is not a bad car to learn control on snow. I used to practice in a couple of R5 turbo's, but when they came on boost it was not easy to say the least. I got used to it though but in real world situations and not in practice you had to be very careful.

4WD was good fun and a lot easier but in the heavier Subaru the back end would just snap out and be a lot harder to catch, even with more power available.

I'm struggling to understand you.

If your driving sensibly, on snow, then how would the car come 'on boost'? Surely you're driving too fast dor the conditions?!

 

[Wobba]

ESP helped lessen the severity of my accident last year. Without it, parties would have been seriously hurt...

In what way did it help if you don't mind sharing? Was it a driver provoked accident or just one of those things? Are you an experienced driver?

 

[Wobba]

I'm struggling to understand you.

If your driving sensibly, on snow, then how would the car come 'on boost'? Surely you're driving too fast dor the conditions?!

Certainly not. On the private area I used to use back in the 90's, one could safely provoke a car and see what would happen. On the public highway, that would be foolish and unwise, but it's good to have the experience from the test area should it ever happen, wouldn't you agree?

 

[RDP197]

It would be good to hear from people who have had accidents with more modern cars and try to see if the driver aids aided or hampered their accident.

I'm not sure what this person would say.....
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=103125
(Posted in another thread, yes I know)

One thing is for sure, it's a good thing that modern cars are a lot tougher than they used to be

 

[fUbAr]

In what way did it help if you don't mind sharing? Was it a driver provoked accident or just one of those things? Are you an experienced driver?

Without the ESP I would have hit someone's drivers door square on at 30mph. ESP helped me avoid this, ending in a rear impact. Everyone walked away unharmed thanks to its intervention.

 

[CHRISK172+]

Well personally I think the level of driving nowadays is shocking. Whether its down to people thinking the ABS or Traction control will keep them on the roads I dont know.

+ 1 million

 

[Henry]

I think one of the main things is also older drivers (who happen to have drove older cars with no driver aids) will also have had more experience and opportunity to learn.

think that's the bottom line - it's just that it barely ever snows in this country and that people's opportunity for experience is v limited. i remember watching an interesting film about (i think) the Norwegian driving test and the extent to which it prepares new drivers for snow. perhaps not surprising that many of the great rally drivers come from the region, given that they've such an 'ordinary' opportunity to develop some of the basic skills

someone also mentioned the fact that modern cars have so much grip, even in the wet, and i'll bet that's also a factor in some people's approach/undoing

golden rule of driving on snow (if you actually have to) is that you can't really do it too slowly - momentum will invariably win (regardless of what you or the car does) if you're going too quickly

 

[Wobba]

I was driving Capri 3000s & tuned MG V8s back in the late 70s and early 80s, although powerful rear wheel drive they had much narrower tyres which seemed to bite through the snow. I remember taking my Capri 3000s up to Andover during a period of snow worse than the current one in the early 80s and coming home, we did OK.
I do see people driving far too fast in snow, usually the invincible people carriers and 4x4s-- they dont realise with all the gizmos slowing down and control loss is still a big problem. Some of them have been driving around our estate and losing it big time, crashing into other cars etc.
My best snow drive was in the mid 90s when marshalling on the RAC rally , we did a night stage at MIRA in the Midlands and then drove through the snow covered night to Myherin in Mid Wales mountains covered in snow and had to get to our Marshall post for 6.00am on the stage covered in snow with 500ft drops off some sections, it was minus 13C. We did it on road tyres but it was f**king scary.
MIRA was fantastic at night in heavy snow--- Juha Kannkinen driving the works Toyota was driving so hard in the snow all his brake disc were glowing bright orange!
I think many modern cars have so much grip in the dry and wet that it comes as a huge shock to the driver when this goes in the snow.

Awesome.

I'd agree with the last comment too.

 

[BSC 182]

Its like anything not just driving , in most cases the older you are, the more experience you will have. Nowadays because technology moves on, the younger generation are brought up with these electronic driver aids and never experience cars without.





Think that makes sense

 

[Inferno]

I wouldn't say that electronic aids are the issue. In my opinion I'd say it's an inability (through lack of experience) to effectively judge what a vehicle is going to do on snow/ice.

The majority of accidents I've seen or heard of over the last couple of days have been drivers understeering into something or other. A simple case of too much speed, too little grip and momentum takes over. I don't think a vehicle with or without ABS/ESP would have escaped these accidents. No real appreciation of the grip levels available would be my summary.

 

[Wobba]

An upbringing involving all-weather go-karts, driving on private land before turning 17 and a switch to turn the ESP off - somewhat of a help. I understand where you're coming from; the driving aids can make average drivers look good whilst also limiting a car rather than improving it. An understanding of cars both with and without aids during learning would be a great advantage I feel. Tho if driver aids save lives and can prevent accidents then it's for the best really.

This is similar to me. Good on you

I would agree, understanding both types of cars is ideal, but most people nowadays wont get the chance unfortunately, especially as it has not really snowed that much in ages and because old cars are mostly held together with rust.

Generally though, people here, even though they may be lacking in experience will understand this discussion and see it's value, but sadly your average Joe who cares not for motoring won't even think about it hence the norm for cars now is damage limitation through bulk and safety zones.

Saving lives is the primary goal, but my point is the cars are not necessarily designed to prevent the accident in the first place...despite what they tell you.

 

[alanc1000]

Whats wrong with safety features in a car if they reduce the likelyhood of crashing and ruining my car and hurting myself? I use my car to get from A to B and enjoy myself in the process, not stress myself out about having to be a skilled driver.

 

[Scottydog]

The first time i drove in a bit of snow in my old car with no driving aids I went sideways into a kurb, wasn't much I could do to stop it. I Really think they should do the skid pan test like they do in some countries, would save some lives I think.

I must say the Clio III does handle these conditions quite well! Seems to sort itself out even when it gets a bit slidy.

However, Rangey in Snow Mode FTW tbh

 

[_williams_]

Now I realise that some of you may not understand what the subject line may be asking, so I’ll say it straight: Are more modern cars like your 197’s and newer Clio models with safety crap actually hampering your ability to learn how to drive in conditions like snow? I would say yes, probably.

My question to you . . . were cars in the good old days hampering your ability to learn how to walk in the snow like REAL men did before cars were invented? times change, get over it!

 

[_williams_]

and secondly, driving in the snow is all about getting where you're going safely, so wether you have to fight the car to get there or the car wraps you in cotton wool and drives itself there is irrelevant as far as i'm concerned!

 

[MarcoB]

1.I dont think its down to age. Its experience. Some people who may have been driving for 20+ years are crashing/losing control. A prime example is my father, hes been driving 25 years but is f**king useless at it. Owned most classic cars but that doesnt make him a better driver... You dont know what to do then you dont know what to do!
2.Driver aids dont make that much difference to whats happening, they merely aid - if the person behind the wheel doesnt know what to do then whats to be expected?

 

[caister]

I wouldn't say that electronic aids are the issue. In my opinion I'd say it's an inability (through lack of experience) to effectively judge what a vehicle is going to do on snow/ice.

The majority of accidents I've seen or heard of over the last couple of days have been drivers understeering into something or other. A simple case of too much speed, too little grip and momentum takes over. I don't think a vehicle with or without ABS/ESP would have escaped these accidents. No real appreciation of the grip levels available would be my summary.

I understeered the GF's dads truck into my mums gate post yesterday at less than 5 mph. I had already done the braking the car started to turn in, hit a patch of black ice then kept going towards the post (about 10m) was the slowest crash in history. The ABS was so intrusive I had no chance of stopping. :dapprove:

But then ive never slid like that before so as said i didn't know what else to do

 

[alanc1000]

The more of this i read, the more i think this is just an insecure justification for not being able to own a newer model. Its pretty appalling in fact.

 

[Wobba]

What happens if you own a car just to get to work and don't really care about being able to drive on snow for 2 days out 365?

That's fine, but when those people finally cause an accident due to their reluctance to learn they only have themselves and their ignorance to blame.

It's like saying: My mummy cooks my dinner for all but two days a year, so why should I bother learning? Because when you invite that woman you've fancied for ages over for dinner you don't make yourself look like a total prat.

 

[dandycaptain]

I agree with 90% of the original post. Hell, I drive a Mk1 Eunos: No ABS, no traction control, no airbags. And rear-wheel-drive. And in this snow and ice I wouldn't want to be driving anything else. DEFINITELY not anything with ABS, TC or the like.

 

[Tucker]

i love my ABS,

lets me know when i'm braking too hard.

dont real men just use their laser eyes to penetrate the snow?

 

[Wobba]

The more of this i read, the more i think this is just an insecure justification for not being able to own a newer model. Its pretty appalling in fact.

Or maybe you don't like what's being said when you reflect on your own skill as a driver?

About me: I've owned some really great new cars and loved most of them. I used to import Japanese performance cars as a business and supplied rally teams and enthusiasts with cars, along with supplying myself too

I always wanted a Williams and its also a great way to learn car mechanics compared to most modern cars, so this is a great for me in my current mood. It's also arguable that it is the best Clio of all time...but that's getting off topic, sorry admin.

The point here is to raise a debate, please feel free to add constructive comments at you leisure.

 

[waday]

:boring:

 

[alanc1000]

That's fine, but when those people finally cause an accident due to their reluctance to learn they only have themselves and their ignorance to blame.

It's like saying: My mummy cooks my dinner for all but two days a year, so why should I bother learning? Because when you invite that woman you've fancied for ages over for dinner you don't make yourself look like a total prat.

Sorry but i disagree.

Why in particular are drivers who opt for cars with technology that supports you in the event of a potential accident, when you may have milliseconds to react likely to "finally cause an accident"? The technology is there to prevent it not cause it.

You are also missing the fact that its not always your fault in an accident, if some lorry pulls out on me, the last thing i am going to do is piss about thinking of braking and driving "technique", i am just going to hit the anchors and steer away like anyone normal person would.

Am i still a crap driver by the way? Even though i have 12 years no claims and zero points, but my car has ABS and ESP?

 

[Shorty_Irl]

The first time i drove in a bit of snow in my old car with no driving aids I went sideways into a kurb, wasn't much I could do to stop it. I Really think they should do the skid pan test like they do in some countries, would save some lives I think.

I must say the Clio III does handle these conditions quite well! Seems to sort itself out even when it gets a bit slidy.

Agree with all of this. I had a similar experience with my Mk1 Megane. Over corrected a small slide and ended up heading towards a kerb. Thankfully it stopped before impact and I moved off again. Skid pan training should become mandatory IMO, in both the UK and Ireland. The same with training on motorway driving. A lot of Irish people dont know how to behave properly on our motorways.

As for the comment about the Clio 3 handling the conditions a bit better, you are right. Ive heard of other cars loosing the back end when the ABS kicks in these conditions. A lot of people see ABS as a pain in the rear but Id much rather have ABS on the car. Driver aids are never going to prevent ALL accidents, but they can help to reduce the probability or severity of an accident. But they cant completely prevent an accident. It really doesnt matter how good a driver you are. Its how bad everyone else is.

 

[mattyjones]

total rubbish mate im not saying im a fantastic driver but i wouldnt say just because newer cars have more driver aids that younger drivers cant drive like "real men" as you put it what gives you the right to say this

 

[Wobba]

I agree with 90% of the original post. Hell, I drive a Mk1 Eunos: No ABS, no traction control, no airbags. And rear-wheel-drive. And in this snow and ice I wouldn't want to be driving anything else. DEFINITELY not anything with ABS, TC or the like.

How do you find the rear wheel drive in these conditions? I have only ever driven one rear wheeler in snow/ice before bringing a RX7 over from Holland years ago and that was a bit of an event.

 

[Wobba]

total rubbish mate im not saying im a fantastic driver but i wouldnt say just because newer cars have more driver aids that younger drivers cant drive like "real men" as you put it what gives you the right to say this

That's fair enough mate. I am only giving over a point of view for the sake of creating a good debate, which it has done. The terms I have used are there to stimulate even reluctant posters like yourself to comment.

I think from some of the posts here, especially older drivers, there has been some pretty damn solid backup to my post and therefore giving me the right to make this thread in the first place.

 

[_williams_]

That's fine, but when those people finally cause an accident due to their reluctance to learn they only have themselves and their ignorance to blame.

It's like saying: My mummy cooks my dinner for all but two days a year, so why should I bother learning? Because when you invite that woman you've fancied for ages over for dinner you don't make yourself look like a total prat.

your argument makes no sense, my car has all the driving aids so i dont need to "learn" to drive as you say, so what you're saying is

a. even though there's snow for maybe 2 days a year, i should somehow learn to drive throughout the year to prepare for those 2 days (how i dont know because there's no snow:S)

b. even though i have driving aids, i should have experiance in a s**t car without, just in case (irrelivant experiance as i have the aids :S)

and c the indian down the road is lovely for those days when mummy's away!

 

[mattyjones]

im not saying i prefer driver aids i dont thats why i drive a cup i just dont like the way you stereotyped all young people as bad drivers

 

[henryp]

i hate any driving aids.

 

[realnumber 1]

Imo with snow it comes down to common sense and experience more than any driving aids.
It's probably why the south ground to more of a halt than the north.




















Experience that is

 

[Pumba]

I think the driving test is pants here. How can we expect traffic to flow freely on a motorway when new drivers are never taughty how to handle 3 lanes? Middle lane cruisers ect... You are also never taught practically how to handle a skid, night driving ect. I was taught mostly by my dad about all this. I passed my test 3rd time, but (touches wood) never had an accident and the number of times ive been able to get out of the sh*t in a car due to someone actually showing me what to do is unbelievable! **Thinking 3 times this week**

Swedish driving test has to be gained/passed over a number of years (I think) and this is because there really is no substitute for experience and practice.

Im 21 with 4 years of driving under my belt which isnt a lot, but I guess to keep on topic there isnt much in it when it comes down to the car, experience and skill allows you to get home safely. People with the naive attitude of "I can tailgate at 90mph on the M1 because i have TC and ABS" are the problem IMO.

I drive a 172 CUP .... carefully at the minute!

 

[dandycaptain]

How do you find the rear wheel drive in these conditions? I have only ever driven one rear wheeler in snow/ice before bringing a RX7 over from Holland years ago and that was a bit of an event.

Much better than FWD! It's much easier to direct things safely because understeer is less of a problem even given the slippyness. Gentle balance of the throttle and clutch and Bob's your mother's brother. The car does exactly what you tell it to, and there are no computers telling you that you can't. It was as perfect as you could hope for.