Induction kits cause lean running...

[Pugboy]

...discuss

I know there have been a squillion and one posts on induction kits but I would like to know whether if I put an induction kit on only whether it will:-

a) give any noticeable power gains - has anyone compared RR runs before and after.

b) make it run lean or will ecu adjust.

I dont have much spare cash and cant get chips/exhaust and the full shebang.

Chris

 

[BRUN]

ring Nick at Hill Power, his setup will sort the fuellin out and is cheaper than a Superchip....

dont just fit an induction kit, theres plenty people on here been runnin lean with just that, and you will f**k up your engine by doin that

 

[rt172]

Can someone explain what running lean and rich mean and exactly how it will feck up an engine please?

 

[Mikey16vClio]

Ehhh! First ive heard.

I have IK & exhaust so why would an IK make it run lean? It doesnt change the throttle body & the ECU senses air intake to correctly adjust fueling doesnt it?

Little worried now.

 

[Turkish]

have been told that the ecu simply referrs to a set of preset fuel values and does not make real time quantative adjustments to the fuelling despite having an airflow meter/sensor so yes if you are feeding more air to the inlet without the extra fuel required

 

[Locky]

running lean or rich is all to do with the air/fuel mixture... if a car is running rich it is running on a mixture containing more fuel than it really needs.If it is running lean the amount of fuel in that same measure of air is smaller.

Running lean can cause detonation in the cylinder bores... which if bad enough will pits in the top of the piston and the cylinder head.

Running too rich can cause catalytic converter damage (if fitted) amongst other things.

Hope that basically explains it..

 

[McBunny]

the ecu can only compensate a little bit with an induction kit you suck in more air meaning you lean out the fuel mixture and that causes problems and can melt pistons and thats not nice cos its costs quite a bit to fix

 

[McBunny]

its a good excuse for a nice set of cosworth pistons tho

 

[BRUN]

when at WOT, then as far as i know the ECU has a table of values it uses, and it ignores a lot of the sensors it has around the engine

think this is only a problem with 172s, as they would have been close to lean running anyway because they have tighter emissions to pass

 

[Pugboy]

Cheers guys, thats pretty much what I thought was the case, so its probably not a good idea without some fueling adjustment...

What about de-cats, I know they have 2 oxy probes on the existing but is there a way around it?

Have looked for threads on this but cant find anything. I dont want a noisy exhaust, Id rather be stealthily fast!

Chris

 

[Mikey16vClio]

A LOT of peeps just have an IK though, so it cant be dangerous!

R u sure itll run lean?

 

[Essex_Lad]

so how much would it cost to stop it running lean?

will u need a new chip or reprogrammed old one?

 

[BRUN]

it shouldnt on a 16v.......as i said the emission laws on newer cars are far stricter so they are usually running leaner than an older car would, as standard

 

[Mikey16vClio]

So mine will not be running lean with a PiperX IK on?

 

[BRUN]

shouldnt be...

 

[Norfolk-172]

Why would Renault make the 172 refer to a set table at WOT? Im sure not all 172s will suck in the same amount of air? This could cause damage to the engine as you say! Why would they go and bypass the sensors? makes no sence to me?

The guys at ITG said they cant see why it should run lean, and they have produced LOADS of induction systems. The modern ECU should correct the mixture, if Renault run so close to the tolerances of the 172s engine how can a chip give any gaines?

im not saying your wrong but it sounds like a bloody good way to sell someone a chip?

 

[BRUN]

the chip gives gains by increasing the fuelling, which takes advantage of the extra air being drawn in, usually also changes the ignition slightly

and dont most ECU controlled cars refer to a table at WOT ?....i know it definitely ignores the lambda sensor

 

[Norfolk-172]

Why do they refer to a table? that can only be guess work.

By using a real time reading from the collection of sensors they could produce a much better result?

Im not sl*gging you off, but just confused as to why they refer to a fixed table, say you have being driving around in dusty conditions and the air filter is blocked, floor the throttle and it will run rich?

 

[JJ172]

Ive got a s/h HP IK on my Mk2 172 (Ramair foam cone filter + heatshield) and have to say, have not bothered with the much discussed lean running fuelling mod. I have spoken to a Clio Cup racing veteran and he assured me that it is very unlikely that a simple air filter will cause the car to run lean as suggested. Proof positive will be when I get the car back on the BB Tuning RR (after its been fixed!). My friend recommended that, if it is lean, then a simple increase in fuel pressure should fix it - no need for fancy chips! Lets just say Im not 100% convinced about a certain companys fuelling chip mod...

 

[chris172]

The only way to find out is to get it checked on a RR with a gas analyser to put your mind at rest.

Why do you think Nick Hill took a while to release his IK kit...His first attempt ran lean @WOT. So he has had to modify the ecu to compensate.

My experience was...... after fitting a Viper and zorst the fueling was all over the place, infact i was only getting 20mpg!!! before any mods I had 163bhp and after it was 158bhp!!! hence the superchip remap...and now 180bhp.

The ecu can only compensate below 3000rpm as above this the lambda sensor doesnt work and why it then refers to set tables.



GET IT CHECKED!!!!!

 

[paddymph]

why dont we move this thread to the BenR Forum (aka power/exterior!) hell know!?

 

[Mikey16vClio]

So with cams, vernier pullies, gas flowed head, blarr, blarr, blarr, the chip will be altered on a RR to get the perfect fuel & air mixture into the cylinders?

Do ALL tuning companies do this when carring out this type of work stated above, and is it easy for them to correct, etc?

 

[DTWD]

Depends on what kind of chip you get, if you get a fully modifiable chip you will (as far as I know) take it along to somewhere with a rolling road to get it all setup properly. Then everytime you get a mod have it setup again.

Places like hill power have a basic setup chip then slightly alter it for what mods you have. If you have work done by them they can alter the chip (aslong as its a hp chip) to take advantage of the mods. But this isnt as good as getting a fully programable chip and having it setup properly.



Paul

 

[Bryan]

Quote: Originally posted by Pugboy on 04 April 2003




a) give any noticeable power gains - has anyone compared RR runs before and after.

Yes - i had my car tested at BBT when it was completely standard, a week later with an i/k and cat-back zorst i had gained almost 15bhp, yes granted the rollers at Wilcox seemed to be very generous, but there would most definitely have been a gain if it went back on at BBT, maybe not as large, but a gain nonetheless

b) make it run lean or will ecu adjust.

I think that the cups ecu should be able to cope with a small amount of extra air, though i know having seen other peoples cars the viper i/k will definetely need a re-map, but well worth it

 

[Paul16V]

Load of sh*te id say. On a 16v its fine. If the car is taking in more air the lambda sensor should detect it and tell the ecu to increase the fuel to compensate. This is why it should increase power in theory.

This may be a problem on new cars. Also on older cars with carbs you cannot just put a filter on, you have to play about with the fuelling a bit as it wont do it automatic.

 

[BenR]

Paul, the lambda sensor does not work all the time. The engine only runs closed loop (i.e. the lamba check a.f ratio and its kept in check with live adjustments to keep it stoichiometric) up to a relatively low rpm level.

Cats only work at a certain a/f ration which is about 15:1 (emissions tests are not dontat high rpm), whilst full power is made using a righer mixture. So, at WOT the 172 has a ref table and the olde 16V/willys run open loops with readings taken off inlet side sensors to create peak power.

 

[Mikey16vClio]

So u think an IK can cause ur car to run lean then BenR or r u just stating ur opinion on the ECU functions?

Every1 does it so it aint gonna cause it to run lean i reckon. What do BB/ K-Tec/ HP have to say about it?

 

[BenR]

Yes, an IK CAN make a car run lean, simple. But it depends on the ECUs mode of operation.

IN this case, it jsut so happens that the 172 runs lean in some cases, i dont see whey thats so hard to believe, not all ECUs run on the same design, they dont use the same sensors and work in diff ways.

the 172 has to meet sooper stingent emissions requirements yet make close to 100/bhp per ltr.......just think, for the cat to work properly, your runing lean burn technology, for peak power, you really really are making very high emissions, so renault went about it as they saw fit. They dont expect you to mod your car.

Average inlet temps are about 85 deg, and changes a relatively small amount with the std setup.

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by chris172 on 04 April 2003


The only way to find out is to get it checked on a RR with a gas analyser to put your mind at rest.

Why do you think Nick Hill took a while to release his IK kit...His first attempt ran lean @WOT. So he has had to modify the ecu to compensate.

My experience was...... after fitting a Viper and zorst the fueling was all over the place, infact i was only getting 20mpg!!! before any mods I had 163bhp and after it was 158bhp!!! hence the superchip remap...and now 180bhp.

The ecu can only compensate below 3000rpm as above this the lambda sensor doesnt work and why it then refers to set tables.



GET IT CHECKED!!!!!





but if you car is running lean then technically your mpg would go up no ? or it certainly wouldnt get any worse cause your using less fuel per spark

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 05 April 2003


live adjustments to keep it stoichiometric

damn !! you know when benR is in the house when words like that get posted..

how do you even pronounce that !!

 

[BenR]

Stoi-Chi-O-Metric



basically means the same thing as lambda 1, or perfect ratio.

 

[Mikey16vClio]

but if you car is running lean then technically your mpg would go up no ? or it certainly wouldnt get any worse cause your using less fuel per spark

Not really as its just getting more air into the mix and improving combustion speed (performance). So mpg should stay the same or less as the ECU is trying to surply more fuel to compensate for it recieveing more air i think.

 

[BenR]

if its running lean then its making less power per burn, which means you might need more burns in a lower gear to do teh same amount of work done......so....same MPG?

lol