Issues with Powerflex wishbone bushes

[DanielG]

This requires a bit of a back story - back in December I got a set of the Powerflex wishbone bushes fitted by a suspension 'specialist' who argued with me the sleeves needed no welding - sure enough, 2 days later on track, the sleeves had popped out and were ruined.

They decided to repair the sleeves by straightening them out and trying again, but this didn't work and it was found the wishbone was still flexing a lot due to the metal being softened. I contacted Powerflex to get their opinion on this matter and they sent me a new set of bushes with modified sleeves despite not being at fault.

This time the set was fitted correctly with the sleeves tack welded in etc... so after 2 months of street driving, this is what the rear left wishbone bush looks like...

Rear Right:

Basically my question is - WHY is this happening? Powerflex have been absolutely FANTASTIC in trying to sort this out for me but they have no idea why this is happening - they've never seen it before. It appears the wishbone is flexing far too much under braking, but I don't see why this would be a unique issue if that was the case. Also I don't quite get why the left side is significantly worse.

If anyone has any ideas as to the possible reason behind this, I'm all ears (and I'm sure Powerflex are too!). Once again, I have to give them a massive thumbs up. They're trying their best to sort it out for me and are sending me a set of bushes made from one of their firmed materials (Black 95) to see if this helps.

 

[ROB91]

I suffered with a similar problem with the sleeved becoming deformed and the bushes damaged, that was put down to the first lot of tack welding being poor.

 

[DanielG]

I don't quite see how the tack welding could be at fault here though, the sleeves themselves aren't moving at all, it's the entire wishbone that's flexing.

 

[MartinR]

Hence Why OEM bushes are fine! they flex under pressure unlike powerflex which results in the eating of bushes

 

[DanielG]

Hence Why OEM bushes are fine! they flex under pressure unlike powerflex which results in the eating of bushes

I don't get it. My issue is exactly that - they're flexing too much.

 

[!sean172!]

Totally changed my mind about getting some of these now

 

[DanielG]

Totally changed my mind about getting some of these now

I don't know if you should be. I've never read of anyone else having this sort of issue and Powerflex are baffled by it as they've never seen it before either :/

 

[!sean172!]

Strange why it's happend tho if they're so highly rated . Just seems like ball ache having to change them again if this is happening. Do they have to pressed out to be fitted?

 

[Matt e]

I've had mine on for nearly 2 years now and mine are fine, maybe something happened to the wishbone the first time you had them fitted without being welded into place?

 

[Silent_Scone]

most if not all the issues with these bushes from what I've read have been down to incorrect fitments i.e wrong orientation or not enough weld. Although the fact that one side has completely perished would make you wonder whether theres another underlying issue with your suspension on that side

 

[DanielG]

most if not all the issues with these bushes from what I've read have been down to incorrect fitments i.e wrong orientation or not enough weld. Although the fact that one side has completely perished would make you wonder whether theres another underlying issue with your suspension on that side

The thought of an underlying issue has come up - but the alignment was all spot on when they were first fitted (it's only deteriorated with the bush). I'm all out of ideas unfortunately. The orientation looks correct and I don't think the issue lies with the welds either as the sleeve isn't moving (as it did in the first place when it wasn't welded at all)

 

[Fred@BTM]

fitment is the issue there, they've been fitted with too much bush poking out of the sleeve IMO

 

[Dan519]

can see in the 2nd pic that the sleeve has moved despite the weld (which is nowhere near enough btw)

the sleeves are chewing up the bushes as they're moving around (IMO)

 

[Fred@BTM]

oh and if those are your rear bushes on the wishbones the bolts are the wrong way round too, they should face the front of the car

 

[Dan519]

fitment is the issue there, they've been fitted with too much bush poking out of the sleeve IMO

and that too. Generally just not fitted right

 

[DanielG]

fitment is the issue there, they've been fitted with too much bush poking out of the sleeve IMO

Interesting - how would you avoid this? The sleeve is sitting correctly within the wishbone (Powerflex modified the sleeve around to ensure there is *no* way it will slip out of the wishbone)

can see in the 2nd pic that the sleeve has moved despite the weld (which is nowhere near enough btw)

the sleeves are chewing up the bushes as they're moving around (IMO)

The sleeve's have more than just one tack weld on them (they have 4). I honestly don't think the sleeve is shifting, I think the entire wishbone w/ sleeve is shifting around the bush.

Interesting on the bolt - I've got a friend coming around with their stock 172 today so I'll have to take a look and see what it's like.

 

[Fred@BTM]

the sleeves are pressed too far into the wishbones, they have to be almost touching the subframe is what i'm saying

were the bolts torqued? was the car in the air when they were tightened or on the floor (well with the suspension under load anyway)

 

[Dan519]

Red area highlights where there is evidence of the sleeve moving
Blue area is where the weld should be penetrating all the way along

 

[Jaff.]

Crap! Need mine welded up more then! How do you know the correct position for the sleeve then?

 

[DanielG]

the sleeves are pressed too far into the wishbones, they have to be almost touching the subframe is what i'm saying

were the bolts torqued? was the car in the air when they were tightened or on the floor (well with the suspension under load anyway)

I have no idea if they have been torqued - this was all done by a workshop. Since I'll be doing the next set myself - what should they be torqued to and should they be tightened under load?

Not sure what you mean about the sleeves being pushed in too far - they sleeves are pushed in from the inside of the wishbone, not the side we can see in the photos. So they can't come any closer to the chassis.

Red area highlights where there is evidence of the sleeve moving
Blue area is where the weld should be penetrating all the way along

Not sure if the red area is actually the sleeve moving - I'd have to have a better look at it.

 

[Fred@BTM]

does my picture help you understand?

 

[DanielG]

does my picture help you understand?

I don't quite get it still. For the sleeves to get closer to the chassis, they'd have to be physically longer. They get pushed in from the right (inside of the wishbone) and have a lip on the end of the sleeve so they can't go any further in (towards the left).

 

[Toastfrenzy]

On mine I trial fitted the bushes to the wishbone, offered up to the car and adjusted the metal sleeves so there was a 1-2mm clearance then got them welded, 8 or so track days later everything is still as it was when fitted. Sleeves are fitted too deep into the wishbone, as Fred and others are saying.

 

[DanielG]

On mine I trial fitted the bushes to the wishbone, offered up to the car and adjusted the metal sleeves so there was a 1-2mm clearance then got them welded, 8 or so track days later everything is still as it was when fitted. Sleeves are fitted too deep into the wishbone, as Fred and others are saying.

I can understand this. But too deep in which direction? My point is that is seems both you and Fred are saying the sleeve should be further to the left (in the case of the 2nd photo, ie. closer to the chassis). I'm saying that this isn't possible due to the physical length of the sleeve. I'm struggling to understand though how having the sleeve sit further out from the wishbone would help. My issue is that there appears to be too much movement in the bush itself and it's causing the sleeve to hit the chassis, surely if it was even closer than it is, the issue would be exacerbated?

I think there's an easy way for me to understand it - looking at the 2nd photo, are you saying I should be seeing LESS sleeve or MORE sleeve (ie. it should be further right or left). Going off Fred's diagram, it seems you're suggesting I should be seeing more sleeve, less bush. If this is the case, this is impossible without the sleeve being physically longer as it's pressed in from the left as far as it will go.

I definitely appreciate the comments guys, even if I am getting a bit confused what you mean!

 

[bozothenutter]

following this as I want to do this soon aswell......and having the same trouble understanding...
as per the pictures, should the sleeve be moved left or right

 

[Toastfrenzy]

The sleeve should be moved closer to the sub frame, left in the picture with the red\blue markings on. I think 85% of my sleeves were poking out but once welded all is fine. Had 4 x 1-1.5cm welds on each sleeve too.

 

[bozothenutter]

ok that is clearer tnx!

 

[DanielG]

If that's the case, then I'm not sure how I could manage this. As far as I can tell, the sleeves are as far as they will go. I'll contact Powerflex and see what they say though.

 

[bozothenutter]

could be they sent you too short a sleeve?

I also noticed to talk about the step in the sleeve....my kit doesn't have a step, seems just like a piece of tube to me.
why didn't they make the bush a little thinner and the sleeve a little thicker...it cou;d have had a step then.....

 

[DanielG]

could be they sent you too short a sleeve?

I also noticed to talk about the step in the sleeve....my kit doesn't have a step, seems just like a piece of tube to me.
why didn't they make the bush a little thinner and the sleeve a little thicker...it cou;d have had a step then.....

When they sent me the 2nd kit out they modified the sleeves for me to have that step. That being said, if you look at their fitting guide for the Clio bushes the sleeves in the pictures have the lip.

 

[Toastfrenzy]

could be they sent you too short a sleeve?

I also noticed to talk about the step in the sleeve....my kit doesn't have a step, seems just like a piece of tube to me.
why didn't they make the bush a little thinner and the sleeve a little thicker...it cou;d have had a step then.....

They are actually looking at making the bush thinner and sleeve thicker to aid welding etc as it's easy to put holes in it and not get a through weld due to being too thin.

 

[bozothenutter]

interesting, just went to their site and the sleeves are indeed flared.

http://www.powerflex.co.uk/i/product_images/1-PFF60-301fi.pdf

i'm not at home now, but the sleeves also seem shorter than in my older kit.

 

[Toastfrenzy]

Flare or no flare the end result should still be this

 

[DanielG]

Got a reply from Powerflex - when the product was first developed they had longer sleeves and changed the design as they had numerous issues with the longer ones, so that's probably why some of you think it should be closer, because it used to be that way!

 

[Fred@BTM]

no they should almost be touching the subframe so you can barely see the bush, i'll take some pictures seeing as we do 2-3 sets a week for fitting

 

[bozothenutter]

Thanks Fred,
I have an extra set of arms to prep so it'll be a switchout.
i'm doing it at a rentabridge place so will offer them up to the car as an extra check.

 

[Andrewclio]

I've just received new set from powerflex after mine deformed from 12miles of driving, they sent me flared sleeves with a harder bushes so will see how I get on with them, but I still reckon they won't last long as the sleeves are far to thin!

 

[Struggler]

Ill echo what everyone else has said, sleeves are not far enough out. The amount of exposed bush left out with allow for a certain amount of deformation due to the material. More rubber / less metal, more movement. More movement means chewed up bushes!!

also (and im surpised nobody else has asked) why are all your sleeves bent to sh!t?? it looks like someones tried to pry them open which once again giving room for the polyeurethane to deform and perish!

 

[DanielG]

I've just received new set from powerflex after mine deformed from 12miles of driving, they sent me flared sleeves with a harder bushes so will see how I get on with them, but I still reckon they won't last long as the sleeves are far to thin!

This sounds like the same thing I'll be getting. Bushes made from their Black 95 material and the flared sleeves.

Ill echo what everyone else has said, sleeves are not far enough out. The amount of exposed bush left out with allow for a certain amount of deformation due to the material. More rubber / less metal, more movement. More movement means chewed up bushes!!

also (and im surpised nobody else has asked) why are all your sleeves bent to sh!t?? it looks like someones tried to pry them open which once again giving room for the polyeurethane to deform and perish!

As I've said, Powerflex think the gap is perfectly normal from the photos I've sent them. I asked them about the longer sleeve and they replied saying that they had numerous issues in the past with the longer sleeves. And they're bent to s**t because the sleeves are hitting the chassis! This is why I'm saying a longer sleeve won't do s**t, it'll just make the problem worse. My issue really is that the bush itself is allowing the wishbone to flex too much.

 

[s0fty]

The metal sleves have been pressed and welded too far in, total fail who welded them and fitted them? Had mine on over 3years now without even being tak welded on and they are perfect. Its all about fitting them correct, I had mine presed in by a loacal garage then fitted the wishbones back on myself.