ClioSport.net
Register a free account today to become a member!
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Read more here.
Issues with Powerflex wishbone bushes
- Thread starter DanielG
- Start date
182, SQ7, Trafic
No it wouldnt? The further you press it in the more it moves away from the inside, going closer to the chassis, so when the bush is put in less will be seen!
I'm so confused. As far as I can understand from what people are saying, the metal sleeve should be closer to the chassis and I should be seeing more metal and less bush. People are saying this is because the sleeve is pressed in too far. I'm saying that's impossible because the sleeve is pushed in from the other side and it's pushed in as far as it will go, so the sleeve *can't* get closer to the chassis and cover more of the bush.
With the non flared/old type sleeves you could press them in from either side to any position you wanted.
Looking at the flared ones they have to go in from the inside of the wishbone and the flare limits how how close they can get to the subframe.
I'd just fit the new ones and see how you get on - try and get the sleeves as close to the gap people are saying in this thread as possible and get them to do some more substantial welds on the sleeves.
Looking at the flared ones they have to go in from the inside of the wishbone and the flare limits how how close they can get to the subframe.
I'd just fit the new ones and see how you get on - try and get the sleeves as close to the gap people are saying in this thread as possible and get them to do some more substantial welds on the sleeves.
Ph1 track 172
the welding is also terrible!! very low contact with the wishbone and its just blob of weld!!
and you also havnt explained why the sleeves are bent?!
theyre terribly fitted so everythings just going to come back to that issue first!! lol
get some new wishbones and use the normal sleeves and have them out so only 1-2mm of bush is showing, have them welded in properly and then try!!
and you also havnt explained why the sleeves are bent?!
theyre terribly fitted so everythings just going to come back to that issue first!! lol
get some new wishbones and use the normal sleeves and have them out so only 1-2mm of bush is showing, have them welded in properly and then try!!
I did explain in my previous post - it's because the bush itself is allowing the entire wishbone to flex so much the sleeve is hitting the chassis. This is why I'm saying a longer sleeve/having the sleeve closer to the chassis will fix NOTHING. Powerflex came to this conclusion as well - they say fitting is NOT the issue here. They believe the bush it just allowing too much movement, I don't know why/how, but this is what they say and I'd like to think they know what they're talking about (and the fact they're pointing the blame at themselves is enough convincing for me)
You've pushed them in from the wrong side
You pressed them in from the inside of the wishbone because it's tapered and looks logical - but you don't do that you press them in from the outside of the wishbone
It's a b**ch - we had to file the hole tapered slightly to get them started - but that's the way you do it
And you only press them in so far that they sit virtually flush with the bush
Whoever fitted them doesn't have a clue how to do it properly and hasn't welded them enough to prevent movement either
Mine have been in for over a year and done a LOT of track abuse and haven't worn at all
OF COURSE it will - what you've got is 10mm of bush with no casing - that will allow LOADS of movement as the bush itself is quite soft and unrestrained
If the metal sleeve had been fitted properly all the way out to the chassis - then the bush flex would be restrained by the metal sleeve
Thats why the standard mount is sleeved too - otherwise your wishbone will move all over the place
Ph1 track 172
youre saying that the wishbone is being allowed to move so far that the very large and obvious bend in this sleeve was caused by the wishbone?!
that is about 10mm of lateral movement!! something is seriously wrong, if the polyeurethane is there and cased both sides witha metal sleeve inside and out it should not move that far!! i cant see how youre blaming polybush for this, as theyre producing a sleeve of metal and a chunk of rubber, and the same mass produced item has worked perfectly for countless others.
Youve basically come on here and posted pictures of some ruined bushes, fitted completely wrong with bent sleeves and asked us to identify why its gone wrong. and when the obvious is stated by some very knowledgeable people, youve just refused the good advise!!
tbh i suggest you just buy some new wishbones, but some new polybushes, fit them correctly and start again!! because something is seriously wrong there!! you do have the sleve inside the bush present also dont you?! lol
Ph1 track 172
also it would really help if you could take some pictures of the wishbones NOT on the car. if the inner sleve is in place, even if the outer sleeves were a bit too short (which is stand by the fact that they are) there still shouldnt be that much movement to the point of the outer sleeve hitting the subframe, thats a huge amount of movement for a suspension joint!!
You've pushed them in from the wrong side
You pressed them in from the inside of the wishbone because it's tapered and looks logical - but you don't do that you press them in from the outside of the wishbone
It's a b**ch - we had to file the hole tapered slightly to get them started - but that's the way you do it
And you only press them in so far that they sit virtually flush with the bush
Whoever fitted them doesn't have a clue how to do it properly and hasn't welded them enough to prevent movement either
Mine have been in for over a year and done a LOT of track abuse and haven't worn at all
Go look at the Powerflex fitting guide, then go tell me they're fitted wrong, or do you know better than they do? The sleeve is *not* moving in the wishbone.
10mm? It's closer to 2-3mm.
I haven't refused the advice at all, not sure where you're getting that from. The only piece of advice really has been 'the sleeves not in far enough' and 'not enough welds'. I'm not blaming Poweflex for this at all - they're as clueless as I am as to why it's happening, but they're pointing the blame at their own bushes, not the fitting.
The point no one seems to f**king understand is THAT THE SLEEVE CANNOT GO CLOSER TO THE CHASSIS AND IT WILL NOT HELP IF IT GOES CLOSER. Going closer will just make my problem worse. They're pushed in from the inside because of the taper. I don't blame the workshop that fitted them what soever. They're one of *the* best suspension specialists in Melbourne and prepare countless race cars, I'd like to think they know what they're doing (esp given one of them owned a 182)
Last edited:
The sleeve is one piece? So it's obviously there. As I've said in my previous post - Powerflex believe there is no reason to blame installation error from the photos I showed them. They think the sleeve to chassis distance is perfectly fine (they're first design was longer, they had issues). I think the photos are making the gap out to be a lot bigger than it really is, I'd estimate it's about 2.5-3mm big, but I'd have to go out and have a look at them again.
And yes, believe it. I am getting that much movement. That's how the sleeve is so bent and is why Powerflex believe the bush itself is to blame as it's allowing too much movement. I'm not going to argue with them. Most companies won't point the blame at their own product, Powerflex have. I have *never* received such good after-sales service from anyone, ever.
Ph1 track 172
isnt the taped sleeve the one you said powerflex took off their line because it caused problems? why are you using it then???
and if using the correct sleeve then it obviously can go out further, because thats how everyone else has mounted theirs!! (and theyre not having these problems)
tbh, i dont know who did that welded, but it is bad!! it doesnt have full contact, its about 80% on the sleeve and 20% on the wishbone, where it should be 50/50, and finally it should be a small line, and not just a quick tac!!
everyone else is mounting the supplied sleeves further out, and theyre having no problems. look at it logially the problem has arose from too much movement of the bush, and youve got a good 5mm of rubber either side of your wishbone allowing extra movement and flex in the bushes!
This is how they should look, with about 1mm of exposed rubber simply to stop the sleeve cutting into the subframe, this means that the bush has no room for deformation and therefore cannot allow the wishbone any latteral movement!!
and if using the correct sleeve then it obviously can go out further, because thats how everyone else has mounted theirs!! (and theyre not having these problems)
tbh, i dont know who did that welded, but it is bad!! it doesnt have full contact, its about 80% on the sleeve and 20% on the wishbone, where it should be 50/50, and finally it should be a small line, and not just a quick tac!!
everyone else is mounting the supplied sleeves further out, and theyre having no problems. look at it logially the problem has arose from too much movement of the bush, and youve got a good 5mm of rubber either side of your wishbone allowing extra movement and flex in the bushes!
This is how they should look, with about 1mm of exposed rubber simply to stop the sleeve cutting into the subframe, this means that the bush has no room for deformation and therefore cannot allow the wishbone any latteral movement!!
isnt the taped sleeve the one you said powerflex took off their line because it caused problems? why are you using it then???
and if using the correct sleeve then it obviously can go out further, because thats how everyone else has mounted theirs!! (and theyre not having these problems)
tbh, i dont know who did that welded, but it is bad!! it doesnt have full contact, its about 80% on the sleeve and 20% on the wishbone, where it should be 50/50, and finally it should be a small line, and not just a quick tac!!
everyone else is mounting the supplied sleeves further out, and theyre having no problems. look at it logially the problem has arose from too much movement of the bush, and youve got a good 5mm of rubber either side of your wishbone allowing extra movement and flex in the bushes!
This is how they should look, with about 1mm of exposed rubber simply to stop the sleeve cutting into the subframe, this means that the bush has no room for deformation and therefore cannot allow the wishbone any latteral movement!!
The original set of bushes I had fitted had the normal (non flared) set of sleeves. These failed due to not being tack welded in. Powerflex then sent me a replacement set and sent it to me with a set of flared sleeves that they custom made in order to ensure the sleeves could not move.
In regards to the amount of weld, I'm not going to say yes or no. Powerflex has determined from the same photos I posted here that there is no issue with either the distance from the sleeve to chassis (their opinion is that it'd just make the issue worse if it was closer, I agree, more sleeve would NOT reduce the movement of the wishbone) nor did they say the welding was insufficient (fitting instructions say "small spot weld"). The welding is clearly sufficient as the sleeve is not moving within the wishbone (which is the only purpose of the welds, the welds have no influence on the bushes resistance to flex)
You do have the right wish bones fitted to your car I take it and\or correct size (diameter) mounting bolt as your nut (pictured) looks completely different to mine. When the bolt passes through the poly bushes inner metal sleeve there is no play?
I'd bloody hope so, they've never been replaced as far as I know! The nut may look different because that bolt is the wrong way around (the nut should be on the inside of the wishbone). I'll find out if there's any play etc when I fit the new set of bushes that Powerflex are sending. This time I'll be fitting them myself rather than getting the workshop to do it (welding will be fun, never done it before).
You're missing a spacer\washer under the nut too...its about 4-5mm thick and about 2cm wide, that would spread the load when tightening over a wider area...so may be you're getting a bit of play between the mounting bolt\nut and the subframe\wishbone mount. Plus the wish bone shouldn't be free to move up and down by hand (I was told or at least be v stiff (could be old wives tale)) if torqued up correctly
Ph1 track 172
So you jumped from the supplied sleeve not welded in to the apparantly discontinued flared sleeves that are imo too short.
have you not tired to supplied sleeves welded in?? which is the the recomended way to fit them by powerflex??!
you cen see from this pic, how short your sleeves are compared to how they should be!! perhaps you should tried unflared sleeves welded in in this manner!!
if powerflex are correct and the welds/sleeves are fine, and assuming the batch of polyeurethane wasnt faulty or they would know about it,
then that would mean it would have to be the bolt or subframe flexing to contact the wishbone, which tbh is incredibly unlikely.
have you not tired to supplied sleeves welded in?? which is the the recomended way to fit them by powerflex??!
you cen see from this pic, how short your sleeves are compared to how they should be!! perhaps you should tried unflared sleeves welded in in this manner!!
if powerflex are correct and the welds/sleeves are fine, and assuming the batch of polyeurethane wasnt faulty or they would know about it,
then that would mean it would have to be the bolt or subframe flexing to contact the wishbone, which tbh is incredibly unlikely.
So you jumped from the supplied sleeve not welded in to the apparantly discontinued flared sleeves that are imo too short.
have you not tired to supplied sleeves welded in?? which is the the recomended way to fit them by powerflex??!
you cen see from this pic, how short your sleeves are compared to how they should be!! perhaps you should tried unflared sleeves welded in in this manner!!
if powerflex are correct and the welds/sleeves are fine, and assuming the batch of polyeurethane wasnt faulty or they would know about it,
then that would mean it would have to be the bolt or subframe flexing to contact the wishbone, which tbh is incredibly unlikely.
The first time my purchased set was fitted, they were un-flared sleeves that were NOT welded in. These proceded to pop themselves out and bend the sleeves. My workshop decided that they weren't damaged enough to justify replacement and straightened the sleeves out, re-fitted and welded them back in. This was fine except I was still getting excessive movement because the the entire sleeve was actually flexing under load (note. it was NOT moving within the wishbone).
Powerflex then very kindly sent me a new set out and their tech guys decided it'd be good for them to make up a set of the sleeves but with the flared end to ensure the sleeve was unable to move within the wishbone (hence why mine are flared and most aren't).
Powerflex don't believe a longer sleeve would help what so ever. I asked them whether there was anything else within the suspension components that could be at fault and they said no.
182 ff cup packs
any chance you can put a pic up of some youve fitted....can see how much bush should be sticking out of the sleeve.....before i fit mine lol
Longer sleeves won't stop my issue. Say you look at the wishbone from a birds eye view (so looking at the ground) the wishbone won't be just moving up and down. The force is being applied at the end of the wishbone and thus will be causing it to bend backwards (hence the bent sleeves on the rear bush). Longer sleeves would just make mean more sleeve being bent but perhaps with slightly less severity.
387bhp RB Trophy SC
Dude u don't no what you on about. when your going over bumps your wishbones moving up and down and it can slide from side to side how you have them badly.
Seriously mate - you're a f**king moron
Everyone here is telling you you're wrong - and trying to HELP YOU
There's 4 shots on here alone showing how they SHOULD be fitted with the metal sleeve all the way to the edge of the bush - and you're still arguing saying it's impossible
What do you think we all did - go and make our own sleeves? LOL
I'm telling you how we fitted them - and how the instructions said to - press them in from the inside
I'm not arguing with you - I'm telling you EXACTLY what you did wrong - and so is everyone else - and you're acting like a jerk
Tapped in from the outside until they're level with the bush - CORRECT and ready to be welded
Pressed in from the inside - which is INCORRECT because you hit the wishbone before the sleeve is out far enough
End thread.
I didn't realise they'd flared the end of them now!
That might be why they're now saying to press them in from the inside - I bet that's awkward though
Is that there attempt at making them weldless?
That might be why they're now saying to press them in from the inside - I bet that's awkward though
Is that there attempt at making them weldless?
BG182ff,explod Focus
Given that the outer sleeve is made of 22gauge mild steel it cannot provide any form of stability in the suspension in itself. It's only purpose is to contain the poly bush and stop it from expanding under pressure. Even if the bush was expanding I doubt it would cause the damage seen and could not possibly have bent the sleeve the way it has been.
Now lets think about this. In this image of your left hand side wishbone it looks like it has been forced inwards under a great deal of force.
It isn't moving around freely in every direction but being pushed back against the central sleeve that the bolt goes through which has chewed up the bush and bent the outer sleeve.
As already suggested i'd make sure you have the correct diameter bolt, fit it facing the front of the car and also fit the thick shim. Also, didn't another Aussie have an issue with the rear most hole on the subframe becoming enlarged and elongated?
Also, as Fred asked, make sure its VF tight. You have a thick steel sleeve being compressed between a thick steel plate either side by a large, hi tensile bolt. The chances of stretching that bolt are pretty remote unless you use a very long lever or a very powerful impact driver. So get the bugger nice and tight.
If you are still able to move the wishbone in any direction other than up and down after that then I'd say your problem lies with either the wishbone itself or the subframe where the wishbone is attached to it. I'd be tempted to swap the wishbone to rule it out as the cause or at the very least give it a damn good inspection to make sure there are no cracks or splits anywhere but you may need to stress it in several directions to be sure.
If everything now feels solid but the bush still gets eaten then something else is causing the whole arm to give in the direction where the damage is occurring. Given how the bush and outer sleeve are damaged in your pic then like Powerflex said, it does look like your wheel is getting kicked out under hard braking causing a huge and unexpected pushing force on the rear bush and a matching pulling force on the front bush. If that was happening I would expect that you would notice such a harsh impact either from a loud knocking noise or through the steering wheel kicking to left.
Now lets think about this. In this image of your left hand side wishbone it looks like it has been forced inwards under a great deal of force.
It isn't moving around freely in every direction but being pushed back against the central sleeve that the bolt goes through which has chewed up the bush and bent the outer sleeve.
As already suggested i'd make sure you have the correct diameter bolt, fit it facing the front of the car and also fit the thick shim. Also, didn't another Aussie have an issue with the rear most hole on the subframe becoming enlarged and elongated?
Also, as Fred asked, make sure its VF tight. You have a thick steel sleeve being compressed between a thick steel plate either side by a large, hi tensile bolt. The chances of stretching that bolt are pretty remote unless you use a very long lever or a very powerful impact driver. So get the bugger nice and tight.
If you are still able to move the wishbone in any direction other than up and down after that then I'd say your problem lies with either the wishbone itself or the subframe where the wishbone is attached to it. I'd be tempted to swap the wishbone to rule it out as the cause or at the very least give it a damn good inspection to make sure there are no cracks or splits anywhere but you may need to stress it in several directions to be sure.
If everything now feels solid but the bush still gets eaten then something else is causing the whole arm to give in the direction where the damage is occurring. Given how the bush and outer sleeve are damaged in your pic then like Powerflex said, it does look like your wheel is getting kicked out under hard braking causing a huge and unexpected pushing force on the rear bush and a matching pulling force on the front bush. If that was happening I would expect that you would notice such a harsh impact either from a loud knocking noise or through the steering wheel kicking to left.
Clio172cup rally car
This is what powerflex have sent me the other day. You can see they have flared the sleeves and have sent me stronger/stiffer bushes, they said that is a 95 Polyurethane compared to the 80 which is used in the normal kit
Right. I'm the moron because I'm telling people that the way the sleeve has been designed (flared) and the way it's installed (from the inside) that it's impossible for the sleeve to come out further. Perhaps if you could all understand that little point we wouldn't be going around in circles.
Yes, they are fubared. Did I do it? No. I paid some people money to go and do it so I could avoid this.
If this is the case, then either the idiots that fitted my sleeves didn't press them in all the way, or my sleeves were physically shorter. I will be able to confirm this later this afternoon as I plan on taking the wishbones off to have a better look at everything.
Finally, a more sensible reply. I'll get a chance to check the bolt (and fit it the correct way) later this afternoon. I do recall the subframe issue you're talking about. The issue apparently is/was that the wishbone mounting holes on the subframe become elongated over time. Guess I'll double check this later today.
And yes, my car is pulling and diving in a very odd way to the left when I brake hard. Powerflex believe it's only their bush at fault. I asked them whether it could be physical damage to the wishbone or another suspension component and they said no. They've also ruled out installation error (funny that, everyone here seems to know better which way they should be fitted and how much bush should be showing)
This is exactly what I'll be receiving by the looks of it. I'm assuming you had a similar problem to me? Keep me posted on how these go for you.
Last edited:
marcushookdale
ClioSport Club Member
rstuned 182ff bg
pics
