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Darren S
ClioSport Club Member
ROFL! So true. Perhaps the most unused thing on my car.
If I was lucky enough to have the ITB work done - the air-con wouldn't even remain in there for 5 secs. Out you go....
D.
the white 1 i posted isnt ktecs carl
Barron
ClioSport Club Member
Turbo S,Exige,R5,182
haha :rasp:
does anybody have pictures of ktecs???
does anybody have pictures of ktecs???
I have quite a firm grip thank you dad!
If anybody had cared to read the sentance and absorb its meaning then they might see that I said it is possible on 2 levels.....cheap and compromised, or zero compromise and big £££.
Its not about sock filters, its not about parasitic loss, its simply about efficiency and doing things properly.
How can I put this simply?
Ok, on one hand you have people who whinged at Icarus' racing car air filter setup saying it was a crap design to have an open filter within the engine bay compartment. However he had taken steps to (and confirmed with data logging) that his ambient temps and pressure changes were basicaly nill.
You have people who install PTFE gaskets in an attempt to lower intake temps. Yet many fail to stop and think that at peak consumption the mass of air is moving so fast that the air has very very little time to conduct any heat....we all know how much surface area a radiator or heating element needs to incraese air temp in a short amount of time.
Then you have ITB installs with zero consideration for anything apart from fitting it in the available space. Anything wrong with that? Not really, no. However, its just an opinion of mine that its cloes to pointless to improve the inlet tract by such a large margin only to increase temps by a third.....and even then your stuck with an intake length which is not optimal for the engien configuration most run.
I think the main issue is a poor understanding of the true implications of the kit, and the true costs involved. What you are effectively trying to do is fit a racing injection system, which has had pretty much zero thought put into how well it will fit your engine bay, if you want aircon or any other consideration for that fact. But road customers will want the racing system and they will want x/y/z to go with it.......but in most cases will scoff at the price of attaining what they want.
I'm just not one for the 'do it for the sake of doing it', which is why you wont find me doing itb installs that wreck the car, or dirt cheap......unless its a circut car where people just dont care about it....I just dont see the point.
And I'm sure many of you wont see the point of spending as much as it will take to have an ITB install that retains aircon, has the required induction length for a road car (face it, if your aiming for an engine making 240-250bhp with a powerband between 5000-8500rpm and want to keep aircon, then you might want to have a word with yourself), zero influence on ambient temps and pressure, and an engine bay that doesn't look like you've let a cat loose in it.
LPG! very cool!
I'm with Ben 100% on this - I have a pretty unique background in that I've been on pure race projects where nothing matters but meeting the power and reliability requirements and low volume OEM projects where you need to meet the power and (much longer term) reliability requirements whilst still hitting NVH, HVAC and ease of servicing requirements.
If you really want a 230bhp+ engine then why on earth do you want air-con as well? Essentialy you have an endurance rance engine package. Okay in some of the racers we want Aircon - but these are cars racing for 24hrs in the middle of France in the height of summer and we're just using up mass that would be balast otherwise (ignoring the implications of CofG).
I think few understand the massive work of a truely perfect spec engine package - I say it quite often but "you can get 90% there with 50% of the work" that last 10% is a big undertaking.
The Clio engine is packaging compromised anyway - this only gets more of a concern when changing induction/inlet/filtration setups due to the available room to fit induction/filtration. It isn't easy engineering your way out of this and if you insist on maintaining air-con etc. then it will be packaging compromised i.e sock filters etc.
Cheers
M
If you really want a 230bhp+ engine then why on earth do you want air-con as well? Essentialy you have an endurance rance engine package. Okay in some of the racers we want Aircon - but these are cars racing for 24hrs in the middle of France in the height of summer and we're just using up mass that would be balast otherwise (ignoring the implications of CofG).
I think few understand the massive work of a truely perfect spec engine package - I say it quite often but "you can get 90% there with 50% of the work" that last 10% is a big undertaking.
The Clio engine is packaging compromised anyway - this only gets more of a concern when changing induction/inlet/filtration setups due to the available room to fit induction/filtration. It isn't easy engineering your way out of this and if you insist on maintaining air-con etc. then it will be packaging compromised i.e sock filters etc.
Cheers
M
M
mini-valver
Completely the point I was trying to make. Why have the possibility to have a 220+bhp engine, but have it only make >215?
I think there is the other side to this....
If the customer WANTS an extra 30bhp from their engine and WANTS ITBS and WANTS to keep aircon then there is a solution, and no one is doubting its not the peak of performance, but with the packaging issues surrounding this its a compromise. There are lots of things that are a compromise.
No one is also doubting that to achieve the ULTIMATE result achievable the frilly bits have to go, but this is two different requirements from the customer..
However the gains from an ITB kit on a std aircon car are still good, and if thats what people want then they can have it,
IF they want to get more they have the choice......
If the customer WANTS an extra 30bhp from their engine and WANTS ITBS and WANTS to keep aircon then there is a solution, and no one is doubting its not the peak of performance, but with the packaging issues surrounding this its a compromise. There are lots of things that are a compromise.
No one is also doubting that to achieve the ULTIMATE result achievable the frilly bits have to go, but this is two different requirements from the customer..
However the gains from an ITB kit on a std aircon car are still good, and if thats what people want then they can have it,
IF they want to get more they have the choice......
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quality mate did you go to pvs ?Down the inlet
The block and pistons
Built
Built 2
Installed before rebuild
The Car
Clio Trophy/Boxster
Seconded, had a good look at it a couple of times, one of the best cars in the club IMHO.
R2TR
I did go but not with the mk1 this year!
My point on this thread was that keeping the aircon by no means makes throttle bodies pointless, but yes for a pure performance installation the less weight etc the better.
I'm completely with Andy on this, yes you can optimise the package for the perfect race solution but you can have your cake and eat it in a road car, and why wouldn't you!
Icarus, by endurance cars in the middle of a french summer do you mean Leman, what's you involvment?
M
mini-valver
I'd rather not have the compromise to the package TBH, especially when spending 5k.....
If it was a £1500 kit that gave you 20bhp, fine. In reality you're spending upwards of 3k just ona set of bodies which will give about 15bhp peak.
If it was a £1500 kit that gave you 20bhp, fine. In reality you're spending upwards of 3k just ona set of bodies which will give about 15bhp peak.
Why are you spending so much? i know throttle bodies well and mine cost about 2k and made nearly 50bhp difference, granted on a different and bigger engine but i just dont see where you spend 5k
ITB'd MK1
made up numbers. who told you that lot? :S closer to 30bhp peak, and noticably under 3k without fitting
WTF!! No you dont. Ive got aircon and long trumpets!!!
Dave, why do you lose the power? and how much across what rev range?
sorry got bored after first sentence. You once told me on the phone that bodies will never work properly on an everyday road car due to lots of things including intake temp and the rad being right in front of them. You also said the car would not start properly and should only go for bodies with an airbox type idea which is strange as this is the way u do it so ur going to say that. As for the 'wont work everyday' side of things..... Boll*x. I have them and they work absolutely fine thankyou very much
car starts everyday whether its hot or cold. Goes like stink. Ok its got crap socks on at the mo but it works fine and makes good power!Im guessing its just down to how much the company whos fitting them knows and their levels of knowledge!
next to nothing i think youll find!! Yes the socks are crap and i will continue to admit that but the gains you get even with the socks are massive and completely change the drive of the car.
sorry got bored after first sentence. You once told me on the phone that bodies will never work properly on an everyday road car due to lots of things including intake temp and the rad being right in front of them. You also said the car would not start properly and should only go for bodies with an airbox type idea which is strange as this is the way u do it so ur going to say that. As for the 'wont work everyday' side of things..... Boll*x. I have them and they work absolutely fine thankyou very much
Im guessing its just down to how much the company whos fitting them knows and their levels of knowledge!
I did 50k+ miles plus with mine in my everyday car in all weathers including snow and ice, to blistering sun! Fantastic, never let me down once and always started with a flick of the key
M
mini-valver
Dan, ALL the posts comparing the too show it. I'm sure Andy will agree that a kit with AC will make less torque and power than one without.
We all love socks it would appear!
ITB'd MK1
huh. what comparisons? The difference is minimal so you wouldn't notice it to drive.
M
mini-valver
CBA to dig any posts out. IMO, they look cack with socks and no slam panel, make less power and so it's a no brainer to lose the AC. If you have them fitted and retain AC, I'd put money on the AC being taken out at a later date anyway.....
It seems to be a matter of pure opinion to be honest ad comes down to wanting the bay to look different. The socks logic i understand but you have to come to the same conclusion, fitting them and keeping aircon is not pointless it's merely not the solution you deem optimal.
loving it olly mate its 1 immaculate mk1
It's not immaculate at the mo, it's in the process (and has been for a while) of a reshell but thanks for the comments
M
mini-valver
I never said it was pointless, I just dont think it's worth keeping the AC and compromise the install for the 3 times you might use it in the summer....
I think though this YOUR view Dave, and thats 100% fine... but if there is an owner with Kids and a wife that uses the car and he/she wants bodies to get some better power and drivability... then i cant see the problem....
if your building a no compromise car then of course loose the ac...
in reality you loose very very little from the small increases in intake temps when out of the road... on the rollers it tends to be worse due to latent heat build up.. the only thing that tends to be notable with the rad temps is a small change in the part throttle timing... only making a max of about 3 bhp..
let me quantify....... when i say small, i mean SMALL!!! would be a similar difference from running 98 or 95 fuel... peak power is largely unaffected..
if your building a no compromise car then of course loose the ac...
in reality you loose very very little from the small increases in intake temps when out of the road... on the rollers it tends to be worse due to latent heat build up.. the only thing that tends to be notable with the rad temps is a small change in the part throttle timing... only making a max of about 3 bhp..
let me quantify....... when i say small, i mean SMALL!!! would be a similar difference from running 98 or 95 fuel... peak power is largely unaffected..
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