JAY172/Mike/BenR - HELP - bizarre problem

[® Andy]

Car just failed its 1st MOT for the most bizarre of problems! My hazard lights work fine when the ignition is turned on, but not when its off or the keys are out.

Has always worked this way - Im owner #2. Altho car was bought by owner #1 from Renault dealer believe its an import (no alarm). I always thought it was a bizarre design ... but put it down to Renault being different etc.. Turns out that MOT says that hazards need to work with both keys in and out.

Cant for the life of me thinking why should work this way. Short of the car being mis-wired and the hazards having a switched feed rather than a permanent one. Nothing obvious like special fuse that I can see. Everything else is working fine.

HELP!?!

Dont want to take this into my local dealer (who Ive never used), to be told they dont know and that the car "needs a new computer". Also will take them 2 weeks to book me in (and car was registered on 1st March etc..).

Failed on rear pads too, but theyre easily fixed (and thankfully discs were OK).

 

[Colin_S]

if your good with wires, just rewire it so the live is permanent

 

[® Andy]

Agree ... and it might come to that. However will admit in absence of any info on the 172 (isnt a Haynes manual and so no wiring diagram) not quite ready to start that yet. Sorta believe there must be something more subtle going on here ...

 

[Chad]

could it be a faulty relay????

 

[® Andy]

Thought about that (been stung before by relays behaving badly). However the fact that it all works just fine when the ignition is on suggested to me that it wasnt. Of course might be that theres more than one relay involved ... but certainly is a working relay down behind passenger side dash that is clicking on/off an activating the indicators. And when I break the circuit to the indicators by popping out the fuse is clicks away even faster etc.. Honest truth is that I cant see why the circuit would be affected at all by the ignition (ie. have a switch feed anywhere).

 

[Dave]

TBH (and some ppl might not like this) in this situation I probably couldnt be arsed to sort it out and get an MOT done off someone willing to pass it. As long as rest of car is roadworthy of course.

Just cos its an arsey problem to sort out.

 

[Paul C]

i agree!!

 

[® Andy]

Trouble is finding such a place Also Ive already paid for the MOT - tho clearly £40 could be nothing compared with the costs of involving Renault.

I hate MOTs!! Was on a high having finally got my engine banging/vibration sorted this AM ... and then to fail MOT this PM in such a strange way (well also my rear pads are shot but thats easily fixed).

 

[jimbo]

its not hard to re-wire a switch, where is the switch located? on top of the steering column? on teh dash?

just figure out how to remove it, turn the ignition on and use a voltmeter to work out which is the live wire, and then cut it, obv turn ignition off first. now wrap the end in masking tape so it cant short out, and feed a wire from a permanent 12v source upto the switch, and use bullet connectors or whatever to connect it to the old piece of wire left on the switch

now it works, for free, and maybe an hours work!

ta da

 

[Chad]

if you live in the west mids I might know someone who will MOT it.

 

[Dave]

There you go. Someone will know someone. And I know I couldnt be arsed to remove all the dash and that to get to the wires. Think of the extra rattling you know youll get afterward!

Good luck with it anyway whatever you do!

 

[® Andy]

Nah ... Im South Coast. Also need to find a repeatable solution since thinking I might actually hang onto this one for a while longer. My suggestion to my missus this evening that I simply trade it in for a V6 on March 1st didnt go down well (since I spent all my V6 money on her new car that she does get on March 1st and so didnt like my idea of remortgaging to get a V6 )

 

[Mike@Rentech]

Got a few things to sort out at the mo,, will pm you later tonight with a possible solution for you.

 

[® Andy]

Quote: Originally posted by jimbo on 25 February 2004


its not hard to re-wire a switch, where is the switch located? on top of the steering column? on teh dash?

Im pretty handy with a soldering iron / multimeter, but will admit in absence of a wiring diagram I dont know which end to start. To get to switch Ive got to remove the central console, so before I do that Im keen to know whether the problem is the feed to the switch, or somewhere else. Since indicators are shared between various systems (indicator stalks / hazards / central locking) assume that there is something more complex between hazard switch and the hazards!? Hoping that one of our friendly RTEs or you guys know how these things are switched and point me the right way??

 

[® Andy]

Quote: Originally posted by Mike172sport on 25 February 2004

Got a few things to sort out at the mo,, will pm you later tonight with a possible solution for you.

Mike ... huge thanks in advance!!!

 

[Andy GDI]

can you find a perm power lead and directly power the hazard relay... should be pretty easy.... (he says!)

 

[® Andy]

Quote: Originally posted by Andy GDI on 25 February 2004

can you find a perm power lead and directly power the hazard relay... should be pretty easy.... (he says!)

As a test or a solution?

 

[JAY172]

very strange that one.the hazard switch should have a permanent feed to it from the battery.it makes me think something hasnt been wired up correctly.have you noticed anything else on the car that doesnt work or that is strange? have you checked all the fuses? will have a look at a wiring diagram tomorrow and post you a few suggestions.

 

[BenR]

do we actually know its a a wireing fault yet?

Seeing as a few switches on our clios randomly work sometimes.

 

[JAY172]

its the ing switch position that would make it seem a wiring fault.the ing switch should have no affect on the hazards lights at all.

 

[® Andy]

Everything else in the car works fine. No other electrical problems. Other things work fine with the ignition off eg. stereo, lights remain on etc..

Other observation is that hazard switch is in when off, and out when on ... is this normal too? Whole hazard system has always seemed strange ... you have to have ignition on, and release the big switch to get the hazards on!

Only fuse Ive checked is the one for the indicators but thats downstream of the hazards relay. Looking in the manual (which isnt very helpful) nothing jumped out at me as another possible fuse here!?

Is it easy to get the centre console out (was dark when I got back from the MOT place all depressed) ? Quick feel around in the dark showed screw on left side but not much else.

 

[BenR]

yes, the button is out when on

 

[JAY172]

there are two screws on the sides of the console at the handbrake lever end.there may be a screw either side of the console near the front under the dash.pull out the gear lever gaitor as there may be two under here as well.mk2 just have the 2 screws at the handbrake end but im sure mk1 have a few more screws but i cant remember.i would look at all your fuses as some systems share fuses and this isnt marked in the manual.the hazard switch does pop up when it is on.need to look at a wiring diagram to offer you a few more pointers.

 

[Lagerlout]

That is a strange one!! Surely there is no need for a switched live to go anywhere near the hazards?? If there is no permanent supply to the hazard switch, source a permanent live from elsewhere on the loom ( cigarette lighter maybe??) and wire a feed to the switch. That would be the easiet short term solution in the absence of a loom diagram!! Are you sure you need to remove the centre console in order to remove the switch?? They can normally be prised out...??

 

[® Andy]

Ok ... Ill take each fuse out tomorrow and check one by one.

Very interested to hear what the wiring diagram shows!

Knocking off for the night ... thanks for the help and suggestions guys!!

 

[® Andy]

Well not quite ... Jay can I get to the switch innards without messing with the console? Where its a big switch with no surround Id assumed not, but as lagerlout says would make life much easier and quicker ...

 

[Ben j]

its not something stupid by renault which they have a switched live and when the ignition goes off it then shuts a relay then giving it a permenant live?



yea and pop the switch out and test for a feed with ignition off

 

[JAY172]

if you pull out the gearstick gaitor you should be able to get your hand in and pop the switch out.

 

[Mike@Rentech]

I just finished the stuff I was doing, rite.....jay has pretty much covered it all, was going to check on the wiring diagrams I have on my pc the (VSIU) have had a look and I aint got the clio 2 phase 1 diagrams installed so will have a check tommorow for you.

Soz about that

 

[® Andy]

Big breakthru guys!! Decided to have yet another night of less that 6 hours in bed, and so have just been out in my garage with a torch etc.. Popped of the gaiter and squeezed my hand down. I cant get the switch out but when trying to push the switch up from below I can get the hazards to come without the ignition on!!!!!

Its as if the switch is bi-wired in some way! A switched feed + a permanent one with something up with the permanent one!

How does the switch pop out? Tried pushing up from below but cant get it out?

Thanks for all the help guys!!

 

[® Andy]

Absolutely f**king chuffed (tho rather cold)!!! Loosened the central console, fiddled with the connector on the hazard switch and is working consistently now!!

Whod have figured Renault would have thrown in the curve ball of a switched supply to the switch too Had me + MOT garage going. A rare example of over engineering! Hazard switch has always worked 100% with ignition on; 0% with ignition off. Now 100% with ignition on and 100% with ignition off ... tho will see tomorrow if its still working after Ive bumped around on some country roads!?

Would still be interested to see what the wiring diagram shows, and how you get this strange behaviour!?

Owe more than a few pints to you guys!! Thanks!

 

[JAY172]

had a look today and i think i would try a new hazard switch first.you cant put a constant feed to the switch because your indicator system is different to a conventional indicator system.the ucbic(electrical control computer)sends a pulsed feed to the hazard switch and the indicator stalk down the same wire.the feed has to be a pulse because there is no indicator relay.when the ignition is on the ucbic sends a pulse constantly down the wire.the indicator stalk directs the pulse down to the lights on the side that you switch the stalk to.when the ingnition is switched off the ucbic stops sending the pulse.there is a additional switch in the hazard switch along with the switch that connects all the indicators.when you press the hazard switch this additional switch closes and creates an earth signal to the ucbic.when the ucbic gets this signal it sends the pulse back down the wire.the other switch in the hazard switch connects the pulse to all the indicators and so you get the hazard lights.if the switch that sends the earth signal to the ucbic fails then the hazards would only work with the ignition is on due to the ucbic sends the pulse constantly when the ignition is on.the pulse is sent constantly when the ignition is on so your indicators will work whenever you switch the stalk.if you dont get what im saying just say and i will try to explain it again.

here are the hazard switch pin locations and their uses:-

pin 1-pulsed voltage signal from ucbic

pin 2-voltage for the switch illumination

pin 3-to indicator lights

pin 4-to indicator lights

pin 5-earth

pin 6-additional switch earth signal wire to ucbic

pin 7-not used

pin 8-earth

here are the indicator stalk relevant pin locations and their uses:-

pin a6-pulsed voltage from ucbic

pin a7-to indicator lights

pin a5-to indicator lights

the two pin locations going to the indicator lights are 1 for left and 1 for right.

i would check for an earth at pins 5 and 8 on the hazard switch.i would check the 10amp fuse in the fuse board(location s27 or e27 depending on how its marked).check for the pulsed voltage signal on pin 2 with the ignition off and on.personally i think this would be a hazard switch fault(the additional switch in the hazard switch isnt working).let me know if you need any more help.

jay

 

[Ben j]

i was gonna say if its bi-wired then the ignition would be permanently live too though

 

[JAY172]

you dont get what im saying.normally the switches are fed with a constant voltage and the hazard switch would have an additional battery feed for when the ignition is off.the switch then puts the voltage to a indicator relay which sends a voltage pulse to all your lights.this is not the case on a clio 2 as there is no indicator relay.the ucbic supplies the switches with a voltage pulse and the switches just direct this directly to the lights.

 

[Ben j]

Quote: Originally posted by JAY172 on 26 February 2004

you dont get what im saying.normally the switches are fed with a constant voltage and the hazard switch would have an additional battery feed for when the ignition is off.the switch then puts the voltage to a indicator relay which sends a voltage pulse to all your lights.this is not the case on a clio 2 as there is no indicator relay.the ucbic supplies the switches with a voltage pulse and the switches just direct this directly to the lights.



yea thats y i said i was gonna say, till i read ya post

 

[® Andy]

Massive thanks for explanation Jay ... does make sense!!

Reckon its the extra switch that makes the earth connection that is unreliable then. Having messed with the switch last night, seems to be working most of the time now ... and when it stops a slight twist on the switch sorts it. Small enough movement to make me think its not a lose connection on the multi-plug, but is something in the switch. Will take the console out properly at the weekend and have a butchers.

Just so that my understanding is complete, whats the role of the relay down in the passenger footwell? Are the indicators being driven directly from the pulsed signal, or does it in turn drive a straight relay which switches the feed to the indicators? Clearly need the relay for the appropriate indicator "click - click" sound, but when I took indicator fuse out, the relay pulsed faster!?

Reckon I should be able to bodge the switch for now (need to get MOT done by Monday) and then Ill get a replacement.

Only other MOT problem then is my rear pads (in another thread if youd like to give me a quick overview of any gotchas doing the rear brakes).

Thanks!!

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 25 February 2004


do we actually know its a a wireing fault yet?

Seeing as a few switches on our clios randomly work sometimes.

hehehehe

 

[JAY172]

Quote: Originally posted by andydean on 26 February 2004


Massive thanks for explanation Jay ... does make sense!!

Reckon its the extra switch that makes the earth connection that is unreliable then. Having messed with the switch last night, seems to be working most of the time now ... and when it stops a slight twist on the switch sorts it. Small enough movement to make me think its not a lose connection on the multi-plug, but is something in the switch. Will take the console out properly at the weekend and have a butchers.

Just so that my understanding is complete, whats the role of the relay down in the passenger footwell? Are the indicators being driven directly from the pulsed signal, or does it in turn drive a straight relay which switches the feed to the indicators? Clearly need the relay for the appropriate indicator "click - click" sound, but when I took indicator fuse out, the relay pulsed faster!?

Reckon I should be able to bodge the switch for now (need to get MOT done by Monday) and then Ill get a replacement.

Only other MOT problem then is my rear pads (in another thread if youd like to give me a quick overview of any gotchas doing the rear brakes).

Thanks!!

there is no relays on the wiring diagram ive got mate.the indicator fuse probably supplys something else as well which the relay is probably used for.the lights are driven by the pulsed signal thats whats makes them flash.it works this way due to there being no indicator relay you see.