hi guys have been in touch with lad wanting to go for a test drive in the cup they have cant get one till after june and he is fully booked up with loads of clio owners wanting it done..anyone on her getting it done..can there work without the exhaust really give 200bhp!!!! 1200 without exhaust is that a good price????
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lad conversion..not wot you think
- Thread starter CUPPY
- Start date
hi guys have been in touch with lad wanting to go for a test drive in the cup they have cant get one till after june and he is fully booked up with loads of clio owners wanting it done..anyone on her getting it done..can there work without the exhaust really give 200bhp!!!! 1200 without exhaust is that a good price????
trading standards anyone? - doubt a registered and well established company is going to their customers off! Theyve obviously spent a bit of time on this one and if it costs £1200 - ull get what u pay for - id be more worried it it cost £29.99 and then they made the claim of 205BHP Cup conversion?
All I would say is just because benR has said it cant be done thats it, no offence to BenR, he sounds like he knows what hes on about, but im sure L.A.D would be in trouble over this by now. If I paid them £1200 and there was no improvment i would have em, there is laws protecting people from these things. Like Cupsize said traiding standards would be involved by now?
Its about time someone had em them?
A simple before and after on a RR is all it would take.
I have seen an article about a guy who has a 106 with some L.A.D work done, on a K&N rolling road he was showing 109 bhp instead of the 130bhp the L.A.D work should of produced! But as it was a K&N thing (were going to make our RR prove K&N filters give the best gain crap) i was a little dubious about it. Its about time some of these CUP 200 conversions were RR for us to see?
Astra 1.9cdti XP
I agree, until you see the proof you cant really sl*g them off! But I have to say they dont seem all that forthcoming with any!
Yeah like i said thats the only way you can be sure, with all these conversions going on there must be a few around?
Has anyone raced a CUP/172 thts quicker than it should be?
320d M Sport
i think a lot of this ill-feeling has come from their saxi conversion where they reckoned on taking a 120BHP VTS to 160/170. Thats a pretty big gain. On the Clio they only need to make an extra 30 to take it to 200.... but as we all know its hard to get good power out of the 172 engine. Id just drive it and see what you think.
The only problem will be if they have done summat else to it and are keeping it secret?!
Why dont we elect someone from here to email them? And i dont mean a joey email where we just slate them!
Call me stupid (set myself up there
), but if i had spent £1200 on head work I would really want a before and after on my choice of RR?There must be someone whos done this, L.A.D have said there quite happy to do this.
Renault Laguna Coupe
CUPPY - to answer your question - TimO172 has test driven the LAD demo car. His conclusion was I expected more IIRC.
Astra 1.9cdti XP
I think any performance gains will be really hard to spot when driving it. When I put some 17s on my car it didnt really feel slower only when you have some comparison (a race) do you notice the difference. I think this will be the same for the LAD conversion (only the other way round). A race would solve it, this would even be better than a RR.
So someone could go along in their cup and get them to go out together!?!?
Renault Laguna Coupe
Do they have email? Get Craggy to send em a challenge that should do it
I emailed LAD several times to get details on their conversion. I have never received any. I will happily pay £1200 for a 200hp cup. Thats good value. problem is, their description doesnt explain to me how they get to 200:
IK, backbox and flowed head to add 28hp? I dont see how, heres what Im basing this comment on:
technomap France have done dozens of conversions on the F4R engine, one of which costs £1900, includes: 3D remap, decat, flowed/ported head, new cams - and it reaches 192-195hp. Compared with the above claim by LAD, something doesnt stack up
So, please if somebody at LAD reads this, if you can convince me I will get a 200hp cup for £1200 inc vat, I will put a deposit NOW. I need to see theRR plots before/after and an explanation of how you get to 200.
Oh and I live in London, so driving up to LAD an afternoon to check a demo car isnt much of an option.
I think the problem lies with companies claiming 200BHP conversions - as we all know the output of one engine varies (drastically in some cases) from another - surely the conversion would have to be car specific and not just a plug in and hope for the best type system - one conversion is foing to be different from another one on a supposedly identical car! And further more all RRoads are different also! Tough problem to combat - customer is never rwally sure just exactly what the engine is pumping out?
Well the general opinion is that:
The standard exhaust system is pretty damn good as it is, so how much will an aftermarket one do? Change the torque curve a little because of different backpressure.
Induction kits basically loose you power unless fully shielded (i.e. Viper), and no-one has claimed anything other than crisper throttle response from them, no more power (or so small it is un-measureable)!
Head flowing. Yes we all know this can make a huge difference on a car thats already been modified, but this car is almost standard. Id be suprised if they found 5 bhp from polishing both inlet and outles ports, and I cant think theyll be getting the grinder out!
Any mention of a ECU/chip? This has put me up to around 180 bhp on its own at an educated guess.
200 bhp is realistic, but not when the mods are limited to the above. Id have to drive the thing first before I handed over a card number.
yes, but they could treat us like reasonable adults vs. idiotic morons with more cash than sense. The sort of approach Id respond well to would sound like:
"Heres exactly what we do to the car. We replace the head with a ported/flowed head that gives xx% better flow (pictue), we change the cams to a new set with profiles abc (picture). Finally we alter the mapping to improve fuelling bla bla. Rolling Road tests show an average improvement of x% torque, y% bhp and heres an attached graph (picture) to show you this. Exact bhp will vary slightly from car to car but you should see between 200 and 205 bhp. We fully guarantee our conversion and have several satisfied customers who have given us the following feedback (quotes and hopefully contacs)"
here, that wasnt difficult was it?
The std exhaust is particuarly good and the only minor restriction is from a tiny flattining of the pipe at a small area dn the huge rear silencer. Thats it. We have dynoed it with replacing the rear silencer only and a gain of 2bhp was there....not much.Quote: Originally posted by Frosty on 13 May 2003
Well the general opinion is that:
The standard exhaust system is pretty damn good as it is, so how much will an aftermarket one do? Change the torque curve a little because of different backpressure.
Induction kits basically loose you power unless fully shielded (i.e. Viper), and no-one has claimed anything other than crisper throttle response from them, no more power (or so small it is un-measureable)!
Head flowing. Yes we all know this can make a huge difference on a car thats already been modified, but this car is almost standard. Id be suprised if they found 5 bhp from polishing both inlet and outles ports, and I cant think theyll be getting the grinder out!
Any mention of a ECU/chip? This has put me up to around 180 bhp on its own at an educated guess.
200 bhp is realistic, but not when the mods are limited to the above. Id have to drive the thing first before I handed over a card number.
The Viper we got 6bhp peak and tiny area of near 10bhp mid range, wit teh std airbox off we lost 4bhp over std.
The chip gave minimal peak bhp gains but it did improve the drivability rather than anything else.
I have several RR printouts from several days testing lying about, ill see if i can dig them out.
As for the gasflowing of the head, if they are polishing it, thats yer first step wrong, i dont know any serious head specialist that actually polishes the ports to a mirror finish, there is no benefit, if they dont get the grinder out.....i dont see what yoru paying for.
And the odd part lies in the fact that the head already flow more than the std TB can supply. Wheres the benefit coming from?
Ben, on the issue of ported heads, wed appreciate some guidance. The little info weve had so far (e.g K-Tec) suggests that they have significantly improved flow in the head up to a theoretical improvement of 24bhp. Whats the point in developing that mod if as you say the single TB is restrictive to the point of cancelling those gains? Also Tmap guarantee a 192-195hp head/cam conversion and I believe that keeps the same single TB.
If the TB is restrictive, your argument makes sense, and Ive looked for a company to provide a larger single TB/inlet. Efjie in France do that but will not release details on the type of TB they use other than saying its not Reno. To me it sounds like theres a lot of mileage pursuing a single larger TB route. I just dont know where to look.
The argument should soon be settled though as David at K-tec is running some tests on their 172 with the new head + new cams and standard TB. We should see results in June.
Crap.......jsut typed a shed load and lost it by acidentally refreshing...pants...
here we go again lol.....3rd times the charm.
Nobody has flowed the std TB as far as i know. The std TB is a specific shape and is actually smaller than the MK1 TB, yet keeps the same power. flowing it would mean destrying that shape, removing the spinding, getting into all sorts with the sealed FBW, making a larger throttle plate to fit in a modified spindle...lots of work.
With ported/gasflowed heads its always possible to make a gain. Thats the nature of casting, you can never get it perfect. Improving flow is almost always a certainty but the amount people quote should be looked at in conjunction with the lift it was tested at and the pressure drop. As flow gains incrase and decrease with lift and the water drop that its tested at. A 40% gain at some incredible pressure drop doesnt mean its a good head. You can honk out a whole load of material and get high flow but poor performance when its actually running. They key is to increase flow by removing as little material as possible, keeping velocity high i the right places and low in others, creating the right shape etc etc.
As for the TB and head issue, if the head flows more than the std TB already, as proven witha stock head and stock cams on throttle bodies making well in excesse of 200bhp, then what would be the real gain on the std body with a head that can flow more but not get what it needs. Im sure there will be a little gain and if dont properly you can increase torque through low lift flow gains, eventhough these account for minimal amounts.
Id like to see what happens too, but i cant justify 1200 quid on a gasflowed head!!!! especialyl with no pics of their work, no proof nowt.
