My ITB Engine dilema, help me.

[Laine_16v]

Hello, dont really post on here much but i lurk in the background

This is a long thread as i like to explain stuff fully

I want some genuine advice though as to what i should do. Heres a few things about me, im a mk1 lad through and through, had 3 valvers and a hybrid. They have all had lots of engines making all sorts of power, but i always wanted more.

Last year, myself and Craig @ APD took a joint deal on a renault clio cup car, it had a throttle bodied F7R engine. Craig wanted the car to house his own custom F7R ITB build.

So i had a throttle bodied F7R engine and the engine currently in my hybrid. Its worth noting at this point that the engine currently in the hybrid was an unknown, it was bought from midge and supposedly a forged engine with cams e.t.c, it had an 8200rpm limiter, but only made 154bhp, so i always presumed it was actually a standardish engine.

So the time comes and my hybrid engine leaks LOADS of oil the day after FCS08, so i ripped it out the following day once and for all and stripped it over at craigs. Well.... to cut a long story short it was a fully worked engine, it had FOrged H/C pistons, forged rods, worked crank, full headwork cams e.t.c I guess it just wasnt buit very well if it didnt make the figures, its was quite quick though.

I decided this was a great opportunity to make a fresh Forged ITB F7R lump. So i set about a long project of fully rebuilding the current and putting the ITBs on it with the ITB meganne F7R head from the cup engine, the cup engine only ran a standard bottom end though, hence i thought id build a nice shiny fresh one. Using the old forged pistons from the hybrid lump with new piston rings.

The final spec came too.... (after many thousands of ££££)

- Rebuilt Meganne F7R Cylinder head, with de-lipped valves, all new stem seals and gaskets. Headwork carried out by Craig @APD (not FULLY worked though).
- Catcam GOLD uprated Springs and Retainers
- Catcam 5502320 (11.75mm x 278 degree)
- Catcam TruLock Pulleys + DTI setup


- Williams F7R bottom end, rebuilt.
- Forged H/C JE Pistons 11.2:1 CR
- Forged Rods
- ALl new gaskets and seals.
- New ACL/Glyco, main end, big end bearings, thrust bearings
- CYlinder block rehone
- New JE Proseal Piston rings (Gapped by craig @ APD)

Jenvey 45mm Parralell DCOE ITB's
90mm Air Horns
Fibreglass air filter backplate
Webber FPR
Custom fuel rail
SHort Chadil Inlet Mnaifoldm fully port matched to the cylinder head.
289cc New SIemens injectors
VEMS stanalone management system and a completely homeade loom by myself.
Custom alloy low profile radiator and compact fan.

The VEMS had a rubbish map on it from the cup car, me and a mate spent many days road mapping with a wideband trying to make it good, and we got it to a level we were happy with. It made 204bhp on a very dodgy RR and did a 13.6 at santa pod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcXhNiEquM4

We towered up the bottom end with hashbrown and cheese

Almost there..

SO what is the point of this thread, bragging rights? to look cool? No.

THe engine is now dead, it lasted 5500 menacing miles. A very unfortunate overlooking caused complete failure. 2 bolts holding an air trumpet on worked loose and were sucked straight into Cylinder #1, the engine is now locked and will not even turn over.

I want to use the car again, and have speed but ive lost nthusiasm for it.

Im now looking at F4R engines, i can get hold of one for around £350 (172 ph2 cup engine), and slap my ITBs straight on (bar the inlet manifold id have to buy).

SO for the time being what can i expect on a cup 172 engine on a proper Jenvey ITB setup?

Talk to me about cams! The F7R has a wide choice, my cams are quite a savage spec and i loved it. But what happens to the dephaser? Do you still use the dephaser activation on standalone?

Can you get non VVT cams and catcam pulleys?

DO the F4R engines respond well to headwork?

Should i just stick to what i know best and rebuild the F7R again?

Wossner state the standard compression ratio for an F4R is 11.1:1 is that correct? THey list F4R Maxi pistons ith 13.3:1. WOuld these be good for a flat out ITB build? or would they over compress the engine?

if i were to go F4R evetually id get oversize 84mm pistons and make it 2.1

Its probably a good idea to point out ive not pulled apart the engine yet, it got towed home and its sat on the drive for the past month and a half ever since.

All help, comments, and advice welcomed.

 

[Brett]

Mate, I love that car. It sounds amazing and obviously goes very, very well. 10/10.

 

[Bazzon]

A Jenvey ITB set up on standard internals will make 200BHP give or take a little.

Cams wise, Catcams 421's seem to be the cam of choice for most when building a more powerful engine.

With forged internals + a decent set of cams you can get 230BHP (give or take again)

As for some off the other work you are wanting to do PM me or Barron (my brother) we are working on something, currently that is sort of similar.

/Adrian

 

[geesus69]

i have a set of 421's for sale

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=454581

 

[f0xy]

F4R after all, my days.

IIRC ben_p had one of the highest compression ratios on here in his most recent build, the spec is in his thread I think.

 

[bradharding24]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. It seems like a good idea, but when you look into it, you realise its just wrong in every way.

 

[geesus69]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. It seems like a good idea, but when you look into it, you realise its just wrong in every way.

.........but strangely satisfying?

 

[f0xy]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. It seems like a good idea, but when you look into it, you realise its just wrong in every way.

how is it wrong to get more power, torque and a lighter engine for a lot less money than tuning an f7r to the same spec as an f4r then?

 

[jamie rigby]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. It seems like a good idea, but when you look into it, you realise its just wrong in every way.

why is it wrong in every way???...


gutted to hear that tho mate, looks like a right animal!

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. Awesome and I love it!

interesting!

F4R is an easier engine to live with and is already spec'd with wilder cams, but personally I'd build up the one you have already, but ditch the VEMS as they are garbage.

 

[sideways danny]

Stock internals F4R, use your current DCOE bodies (Chadil do a manifold for the F4R though I've no idea what it's like. The Jenvey SF manifold will undoubtable be better quality) Catcams 421s. Done. Should see you at about 210-215

Keep the de-phaser in this instance IMO. You can get non vvt cams but you really only want that if you dont use it daily

F4R tends to just make more torque with good headwork. Replicating the ph1 exhaust ports on a later engine is job 1 IMO

 

[Laine_16v]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. It seems like a good idea, but when you look into it, you realise its just wrong in every way.

Maybe, ive had a very strong opinion against F4R's in mk1 shells since day dot, but im thinking its worth a try

 

[Laine_16v]

interesting!

F4R is an easier engine to live with and is already spec'd with wilder cams, but personally I'd build up the one you have already, but ditch the VEMS as they are garbage.

Explain why VEMS is garbage, ive Used the software myself, so has my mate who did a bit of road mapping with me, with no issues at all.

It does exactly what i need and hasnt failed me yet.

 

[Laine_16v]

Stock internals F4R, use your current DCOE bodies (Chadil do a manifold for the F4R though I've no idea what it's like. The Jenvey SF manifold will undoubtable be better quality) Catcams 421s. Done. Should see you at about 210-215

Keep the de-phaser in this instance IMO. You can get non vvt cams but you really only want that if you dont use it daily

F4R tends to just make more torque with good headwork. Replicating the ph1 exhaust ports on a later engine is job 1 IMO

Yeah i spotted Chadils manifold for the F4R (looks spot on identical to the one i have now apart from slight port changes and inlet stud locations as youd expect).

Looks of decent quality too.

http://chadil.be/files/images/TAL-2230 005.preview.jpg

I dont mind non VVT, makes it a little more F7'esque i guess, the engine i had pulled well only from 4.5k onwards really, so im used to higher end power (i like it). At what RPM does the VVT engage and disengage?

Nice to know the infor about exhaust ports, will investigate.

 

[sideways danny]

VVT is there to make the cam timing a lot more friendly at low RPM so the engine is generally smoother at low revs. Its switched at about 1800rpm as standard

 

[Fredy]

interesting!

F4R is an easier engine to live with and is already spec'd with wilder cams, but personally I'd build up the one you have already, but ditch the VEMS as they are garbage.

A lot of top drag cars run on VEMS and a couple of people I know run it on their daily drivers - definitely not a "garbage" SA

 

[Matteh]

Putting an f4R in a Mk1 shell is like looking at tranny p**n. It seems like a good idea, but when you look into it, you realise its just wrong in every way.

no ones listening, stromba

 

[Andy GDI]

421's are fairly mild.

high power engines tend to use 422's give a strong kick at 5k revs..

 

[Andy GDI]

also on ITB's you dont need the VCT, as you wont get adverse pulse effects with wild cams and bodies..

putting some pullies on also reduces alot or rotating mass from the cams.

 

[bradharding24]

Replacing one inherently expensive to tune engine, with another inherently expensive to tune engine seems like the kind of things a new labour government would do. It just causes more problems than it solves.

Laine, you have the car ready to fit a new engine. Just go and buy a new f7r and fit it. Stop letting other people influence what you know is the 'right' decision. You told me that fitting an f4r was stupid. Its was stupid when you said it, it still is stupid now.

 

[Matteh]

so both engines are expensive to tune - why not start off with the better one in the first place?

 

[bradharding24]

Flan fucked about with his mk1 and got a reliable 100 + bhp.

You fucked about equally and got what? 12 bhp?

One of these decisions was a good one, one was a bad one. Ill leave you to try and decide which is which.

 

[Matteh]

flan's was a *little* more involved than mine, wouldn't you say?

and also take a look at Whiteleys conversion rate before you start spouting that one off


I also faffed around for a 10% increase in stiffness with the front ARB. oh no wait.

I still can't believe you don't grow weary of being constantly wrong

 

[bradharding24]

Fitting and f4r is exactly what new labour would do. It seems like a good idea, but in reality it is just tinkering round the edges. Its not really changing anything.

You start with a car with a renault 2 litre NA engine putting out about 155 bhp.

And you could end up with a car with a renault 2 litre NA engine putting out about 155 bhp.

So whats the point?

 

[jamie rigby]

Fitting and f4r is exactly what new labour would do. It seems like a good idea, but in reality it is just tinkering round the edges. Its not really changing anything.

You start with a car with a renault 2 litre NA engine putting out about 155 bhp.

And end up with a car with a renault 2 litre NA engine putting out about 155 bhp.

So whats the point?

F7R = 150bhp... F4R = 165-170bhp... thats right isnt it or are you always right brad?

 

[Matteh]

yep, round up the williams and round down the 172


now who's nu labour

god knows how mine, with a largely complete interior and a diesel box can keep up with tuned F7Rs in more stripped cars

 

[cliotoris]

yep, round up the williams and round down the 172


now who's nu labour

god knows how mine, with a largely complete interior and a diesel box can keep up with tuned F7Rs in more stripped cars

When we having the dice up then Matteh :rasp: Mr barrington again eh? God I love his haircut & his gear shifting skillz

:lolup:

 

[jay s]

laine do not fit an F4R, just strip down your eng and replace what is needed, it will work out alot cheaper and alot easier in the long run mate

Matteh im still willing to show you why you fitted the wrong eng, you around this weekend

also need to see these F4R'd mk1's lay down some decent times at pod:rasp:

 

[Matteh]

lol

allow me free use of gears and you're on!

 

[bradharding24]

F7R = 150bhp... F4R = 165-170bhp... thats right isnt it or are you always right brad?

And how many f4rs make 170 bhp?

Answer: not many

 

[bradharding24]

yep, round up the williams and round down the 172


now who's nu labour

god knows how mine, with a largely complete interior and a diesel box can keep up with tuned F7Rs in more stripped cars

I think its widely accepted that you need to round a fair bit off the book figure of most standard f4rs.

Fitting a diesel box to a performance cars is a complete retards thing to do btw.

The longer gears will more than have eliminated any advantage you got from increasing the horse power.

 

[Matteh]

oh wow, please do teach me about gear ratios - i did not realise

you seem to overlook me stating the diesel box was along with the other 'negatives'



If a Williams can barely keep up with a heavier 172, the engine must be doing something better, right? - even then i bet the williams would have the classic raised limiter and breathing mods which everyone counts as standard


but why let minor details get in the way


"Stromba: fighting a losing battle since 1976"

 

[Matteh]

And how many f4rs make 170 bhp?

Answer: not many

[...]a forged engine with cams e.t.c, it had an 8200rpm limiter, but only made 154bhp, so i always presumed it was actually a standardish engine.

[snip]

Well.... to cut a long story short it was a fully worked engine, it had FOrged H/C pistons, forged rods, worked crank, full headwork cams e.t.c

:lolup:

 

[Hutchie]

i got a k4m if your intrested


its rubbish

 

[bradharding24]

:lolup:

Is this the same engine that Midge drove from london to stafford with no oil in it? And then back again?

It was lucky to make 154 bhp if you ask me.

 

[Matteh]

why?

F7Rs are indestructible.

 

[bradharding24]

They are. It did 400 miles with no oil in it and still made 154 bhp.

The f4r wouldnt have got to luton.

 

[Matteh]

haha

hows the forum doing these days?

 

[Laine_16v]

VVT is there to make the cam timing a lot more friendly at low RPM so the engine is generally smoother at low revs. Its switched at about 1800rpm as standard

Cool well im not after a nice standard driving car, the cams in my car are pretty much on par with the 422's by the look of thing and it drove no problem at low rpm

Regarding Andy GDI, good stuff i would ditch the VVT, and catcam pulleys sounds a good way of removing that chunky dephaser pulley that probably weighs 20kg

 

[Danmalone1999]

yep, round up the williams and round down the 172


now who's nu labour

god knows how mine, with a largely complete interior and a diesel box can keep up with tuned F7Rs in more stripped cars

No need to do any rounding down by the looks of it