Neutralizing body roll on a 172? help appreciated.

[Filters]

My 172 (non cup) has a little bit more body roll/lean mid turn than I would like, I'm looking neutralize it as much as possible so that the car sits flatter through corners.

I'm currently running cup shocks with cooksport springs and though it's a nice stiff set up it's still leaning more than I would like.

Would it be worth going down the whiteline ARB route? Strut braces?
Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

 

[Adam G]

Whiteline definitely helps.

 

[ben lee]

stiffer springs.

roll bars only help to keep the wheel on the ground.

 

[MicKPM]

As above you really need a stiffer spring. Are there any issues relating to classes that prohibit the use of coil overs (if this is a track/sprint car)?

 

[Filters]

stiffer springs.

roll bars only help to keep the wheel on the ground.

The springs are stiff as hell to be fair so don't think stiffer spring again will make much difference.
shocks and damper job maybe?

 

[Filters]

As above you really need a stiffer spring. Are there any issues relating to classes that prohibit the use of coil overs (if this is a track/sprint car)?

It's going to be a track/weekend toy when finished hopefully.
No limits on coilovers except the fact I live in the tit arse end of nowhere and the roads/lanes are full of nasty potholes and cowsh*te.

 

[Alex Conway]

Why do you want it to stop rolling? Generally roll rates are adjusted with ARBs, springs are chosen to achieve a ride frequency as far as my basic vehicle dynamics knowledge goes...

stiffer springs.


roll bars only help to keep the wheel on the ground.

Really? What makes you say that, a respectable amount of wheel travel is what is designed to keep your wheels on the ground

 

[ben lee]

The springs are stiff as hell to be fair so don't think stiffer spring again will make much difference.
shocks and damper job maybe?

shocks/dampers control the unwanted movement in the springs (stops the car from being bouncy)

 

[MicKPM]

I personally like a bit of body roll. It stops me thinking my skills are greater than the car's

 

[ben lee]

the spring is what holds the weight of the car the stiffer the spring the harder it is to compress less movement side to side on cornering. less movement front to rear when braking accelerating.

when cornering the anti roll bar is being loaded up with forcing the opposite arm into the floor assisting the spring in keeping the tyre in contact with the road.

some body roll is needed to help give more grip to the wheels.

 

[Filters]

Why do you want it to stop rolling? Generally roll rates are adjusted with ARBs, springs are chosen to achieve a ride frequency as far as my basic vehicle dynamics knowledge goes...

I like a car to feel flat and planted in a corner so just looking for a way of achieving that with my clio as it gets that "wallowing" feeling a bit much for my liking on fast bends. Ride wise the spring and shock combo is fine, i just want less roll.

 

[Alex Conway]

If it's wallowing it's probably transitioning too fast which means it probably needs more damping. Flat does not equal planted!

 

[MicKPM]

Flat does not equal planted!

Amen! It amazing how many people seem to apply this logic though.

To the OP - are you sure the dampers aren't old and tired, tires all in good order, etc? It's easy to talk yourself into spending a huge sum of cash on "upgrades" when all you really need to do is refresh the old items.

 

[Filters]

I personally like a bit of body roll. It stops me thinking my skills are greater than the car's

it's just a little to much for its intended purpose i guess.

If it's wallowing it's probably transitioning too fast which means it probably needs more damping. Flat does not equal planted!

Could well be hense why I'm looking for other peoples opinions and to see what others have done to their handling set up's.
It's on cup shocks and dampers for now so that could be one aspect to improve upon.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Take weight out of the car if you don't want a stiffer setup.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

If it's wallowing it's probably transitioning too fast which means it probably needs more damping. Flat does not equal planted!

Agree with this. Mine is so much better after changing the cup shocks for Koni shocks with the cooksport springs

 

[Filters]

Take weight out of the car if you don't want a stiffer setup.

I've considered that for the future/summer Tom and then selling any bits removed (cars still under 50k at the mo so every thing's tidy) to put towards more mods.

 

[Filters]

Agree with this. Mine is so much better after changing the cup shocks for Koni shocks with the cooksport springs

Worth a try i guess.
Would i be able to re-use the cooksports i have now? they've done about 6-7k of mixed driving.

 

[Andy93]

Fitting a rear anti roll bar to mine made a huge difference. The back end is a lot stiffer and it feels like there's a lot more outright grip at the rear if driven smoothly.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Worth a try i guess.
Would i be able to re-use the cooksports i have now? they've done about 6-7k of mixed driving.

Yes you can, the springs will be fine.

I would go with the following:-

Remove weight - from heigh up and over front wheels is best. e.g battery, aircon, bonnet, windows
Solid top mounts - either AST (adjustable for camber and caster, no drilling required) or PMS (not adjustable, require drilling)
Koni or Spax adjustable shocks although I'd personally recommmend the Koni shocks.
Wheel/hub spacers and/or cup subframe - filling out the arches looks better but also gives you a wider track which helps with spring effort.
Whiteline rear anti roll bar - reduces an amount of weight transfer from the front

 

[Filters]

Yes you can, the springs will be fine.

I would go with the following:-

Remove weight - from heigh up and over front wheels is best. e.g battery, aircon, bonnet, windows
Solid top mounts - either AST (adjustable for camber and caster, no drilling required) or PMS (not adjustable, require drilling)
Koni or Spax adjustable shocks although I'd personally recommmend the Koni shocks.
Wheel/hub spacers and/or cup subframe - filling out the arches looks better but also gives you a wider track which helps with spring effort.
Whiteline rear anti roll bar - reduces an amount of weight transfer from the front

Now that's the kind of advice I was after, Thanks Tom.

 

[MarkCup]

I like roll; it gives you a far greater tangible sense of the weight transfer and overall balance which is what you want if you're trying to improve your skills. Also means that if you do get it all wrong, you're likely to get earlier warning signs and greater progression as it lets go.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I like roll; it gives you a far greater tangible sense of the weight transfer and overall balance which is what you want if you're trying to improve your skills. Also means that if you do get it all wrong, you're likely to get earlier warning signs and greater progression as it lets go.

I still get roll, enough to warn of impending doom. But it no longer feels like the HMS Ark Royal.

 

[MG cup]

I like roll; it gives you a far greater tangible sense of the weight transfer and overall balance which is what you want if you're trying to improve your skills. Also means that if you do get it all wrong, you're likely to get earlier warning signs and greater progression as it lets go.

I agree with this having totally refreshed my last track cup suspension and steering wise with Eibach sportlines, RARB and an aggressive geo along with all new steering and suspension consumables at once.

Although it was fun and playful and easy to control when it slid you soon find its limits and want it to corner flatter and not initiate the slide with the weight transfer. Cup shocks definitely aren't what your looking for OP.

 

[p@blo]

I still get roll, enough to warn of impending doom. But it no longer feels like the HMS Ark Royal.

Cup shocks definitely aren't what your looking for OP.

But out of the dealership race car?

 

[MG cup]

But out of the dealership race car?

What 172 cups aren't?

A few was hinting or suggesting new shocks, its not going to get what he wants. With my camera dash mounted the roll is comical.

 

[...]

Controlling body roll is a combination of CoG , anti roll bars front and rear and spring rates and damper valving .

the first step is to uprate roll bars ,as there are many very compliant cars from a damping point of view that don't roll hugely due to the stiff ness of the rollbars

basics _ shocks and springs control the wheels going up and down and the rate at which they do

Roll bars reduce body roll across the axle (the clues in the name)

its obviously not as clear cut as just using roll bars as its in reality a corelation between spring rates/damper rates and roll bar stiffness . that coupled with the natural CoG of the car

on track , new cup shocks , cooksports and standard front anti roll bar only is as soft as a boat in my opinion .

Tyres and sidewall stiffness also come into the equations to , and then we start to get into slip angles of the tyre .


a read of Staniforth will help you start to understand but its based around slicks and wings really

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28596422/competition-car-suspension


if you really want to understand

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1560915269/?tag=cliospnet01-21

but thats going to be hard work

 

[MicKPM]

But out of the dealership race car?

p@blo I'm normally on Tapatalk and just noticed your Avatar - ACTUAL LOLZ

 

[p@blo]

p@blo I'm normally on Tapatalk and just noticed your Avatar - ACTUAL LOLZ

Lol. I didn't believe in Karma until I saw that pic Mick.

 

[KevF182]

Some dicky advice going on early in this thread in my opinion... but then, reasuringly, a few with knowhow have chimed in. Front and rear suspension geometry is designed to give a Roll Centre height. That and the cars inherant Center of Gravity are arguably the most important factors relating to body roll, but since they are not not easily tuned with "upgrades" people don't get too bothered with understanding them. But spring rate and ARB rates clearly both reduce roll if they are increased (and can adjust under/oversteer if not balanced front/back)

I'll just add that you could help us by saying what your comparing your car with - what other performance cars you have had, or have been in that you wanted your car to be more like? You seem to have a good (typical mildly upgraded) road set-up.There's no single "upgrade" that would make a big improvement to roll, as its a tin-top with a high C of G after all.

You could try the Eibach rear bar, and/or Koni shocks, but if you're serious you should be looking at fully adjustable coilovers designed for track use. But for a road car, I'll say you're better off fine tuning what you've already got first, choosing stiffer tyres and playing with pressures.

 

[KevF182]

when cornering the anti roll bar is being loaded up with forcing the opposite arm into the floor assisting the spring in keeping the tyre in contact with the road.

Who told you that nonsense? With an anti-roll bar, if one side is loaded up (in cornering, eg) the opposite side is also unloaded to a degree depending on the size of the bar (and its geometry). It certainly doesn't force the opposite side to keep the tyre in contact with the road, it would actually help raise it.

 

[Andrewclio]

I don't even run a front arb on the rally car!

 

[...]

I don't even run a front arb on the rally car!

Bit thats for a specific reason though !! ... and asume thats a gravel not tarmac setup ;-)

 

[...]

Who told you that nonsense? With an anti-roll bar, if one side is loaded up (in cornering, eg) the opposite side is also unloaded to a degree depending on the size of the bar (and its geometry). It certainly doesn't force the opposite side to keep the tyre in contact with the road, it would actually help raise it.

The levels of misunderstanding of what suspension does are always highlighted in threads like this .

 

[KevF182]

I don't even run a front arb on the rally car!

...to maximise traction? Yeah, its not all about roll. or lack of. Personal taste in car handling is important, guess the OP has desire for turn-in speed?

 

[Andrewclio]

Bit thats for a specific reason though !! ... and asume thats a gravel not tarmac setup ;-)

Yep, but still on Tarmac, the s1600 didn't run one either, where still playing around with the setup, but advantage is having the 2way adjustable suspension, also still playing a round with spring rates.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Lol.

 

[Andrewclio]

...to maximise traction? Yeah, its not all about roll. or lack of. Personal taste in car handling is important, guess the OP has desire for turn-in speed?

Ye get loads of traction out the corners, especially on single venue stages when's there a lot of tight twisty chicanes

 

[...]

I await a discusion on 2 and 3 way damper setups ..... but let me buy in some popcorn first. (Not aimed at you andrew )

 

[Tony Hunter]

Always tempted to disconnect the front arb on a wet race, but never got around to it yet.