NEW Mk2 Clio championship

[Keith185]

Will be keeping an eye on this.

Few little things bit strange as most have mentioned such as only 182's and 16" wheels to name only two, sort of go against it trying to be a less expensive series.

 

[ben_p]

I have a towing bus or two... so thats that sorted...!!

You buy the trailer and ill buy the ecu lol.
We could keep at mine and I already have a load of parts...

Plus you could tow it there, set everything up. Ill fly in, land on the pit straight. Win the race and fly home!

 

[dmallett]

Would be a pretty good series if they sorted a few things out that are already mentioned, hopefully it would be a cheap way into racing for some!

 

[Alex H]

In 2013 it's going to be a development series, hopefully they'll iron all the issues out before stand-alone races in 2014, then championship status in 2015.

 

[Alex H]

OK, just to clear a few things up here, I've got some emails from Bill. Think Bill will be a member on here soon too to help answer some questions.

Basically, all 182s are eligible. The 182 Cup needs only the race modifications. The 182 needs both cup packs and race modifications. The Trophy needs race modifications.

We have spent some considerable time evaluating the Clio's and the variants, 172, 172 cup, trophy, 182, sport, trophy, 182 cup all of which have variations that affect performance and comfort. We could of chosen the 172, but then there are so many 'improvements' up to the 182 cup that could be shall we say quietly added [cheating] that would totally compramise policing and the future championship, ending up the same way as current Class A stock hatch, loads of money with mix and match.We have used a Renault specialist to go through the model types components, plus seeked tuning specialists knowledge of the add ons and common upgrades to determine the 182 cup choice, its not been a guess.

So chose the top best performance Clio, its also the most up to date and has the clean CB22 model type with no variations across its build period. Nothing on a 172 etc will improve its performance and there plenty about at a reasonable cost [£1000-3000], this includes factory built and dealer option upgrades, hence variances in colours.

The 172 is not the same car as a 182 cup, there are some major differences as follows:

Rear body/chassis-172 has a spare wheel well, the 182 cup does not have this.
182 cup has twin exhaust at the rear, 172 does not.
182 cup has a different rear beam axle to the 172.
182 cup has different exhaust and inlet manifolds to 172.
182 cup has a different cylinder head to the 172.
182 cup has different front hub carriers, driveshafts, lower wishbone than the 172.
The gearbox ratios are different.
The wheels are different.
The air filter housing differs.
Front splitters and rear boot wing differ.
The list goes on in other areas not associated with racing.

Its not as simple as 10bhp and ABS, the cars are totally different.

The 172 does have changes in parts over its life/build period, cylinder head being one, plus big changes in panels when going to a 172 cup, a minefield to right rules for.

So its not simple to right regulations to cover so much variance across car types and build periods [as seen with the saxo for example] and police it all in a 1-3 hour slot on a Sunday.

I do hope this does clearly explain why we at the begining have decided upon the 182 cup and not any other car type or variant.
Do note I also have a 172 sport, but must agree that the 182 cup is the only choice at present.

regards

Bill Gregory.

and..

The heritage site backs up our figures, now I have managed to get on.
Yes lists 539 full spec 182 cup in inferno red and racing blue [light blue]. It also under the 182 lists 3,967 with cup suspension including 3675 with cup spoiler, in black silver green yellow, artic blue. Note the club car is in artic blue and it is fully registered as CB22 a clio 182 cup. There are also 500 182 trophy cars in red that apart from alloys and dampers are CB22 types.

So not that rare with some 5000 possible cars [ok some mods are needed], compared to only the 3059 172 phase 2, and 2392 172 cup cars available.

Our fiqures show 5234 182 cups adding in the aftermarket dealer cup pack sales during the 182 model build, thats only 217 less than all 172's.

As I said we are compiling a list of whats different between models, so people can make a judgement as to what to buy as a base car.

Thanks, and any comments welcome.

regards

Bill Gregory

 

[Bill182]

Hello,

I am Bill from the 750Motor club, and I was at autosport on the stand introducing the new Clio 182 cup racing series.

I have also replied to Alex as you can see earlier.

We did speak to loads of interested people on the stand, and taken some very positive feedback, especially on the Hans issue and roll cage, which I must admit slipped our minds during the hectic 3 week build of the car before the show over xmas. Yes we have included in the still to be published regulations that a 'Harness Bar' can be added to MSA rules, plus allowed the extra second door bar or cross door bar arrangement. A 6 point bolt in cage meets all MSA safety requirements and is not intended to be a performance enhancement. The concept is to keep the cost down inside the eligeability envelope, and the cage acheives this, otherwise those who have loads of dosh fit the multi welded in t45 type and do acheive a performance advantage.

Costs, yes argue the wheel type, but even on 15 's the tyre cost is comparable. Currently the clio tyres are cheaper than the A048 currently in use in the Stock Hatch class A [saxo] championship.

The full regulations will be issued as soon as we have secured all the mandatory items details, expected early February at the latest.

One comment is correct, the intention was and is to allow the car to be driven to the circuit, on your original ecu. Fit the race ecu [that eliminates traction control, cruise control etc], then home again on the road ecu. You can race with the standard exhaust as you have to run a cat, plus Air con can be left in etc. The car is also a handy for track days if you add back in the passenger seat and belts. [also loads of boot space to take the other half shopping].

I will endeavour to listen to comments and answer as appropiate, but will not be on the forum every day, so be patient please.

Bill

 

[ben_p]

I'm very interestedin this.

When would estimated season costs be released? I’m taking it you would alsoneed a race license?

 

[p@blo]

Seems a lot of the assumptions on the 172 have been based solely on the Phase 1.

The 172 is not the same car as a 182 cup, there are some major differences as follows:

Rear body/chassis-172 has a spare wheel well, the 182 cup does not have this.
182 cup has twin exhaust at the rear, 172 does not.
182 cup has a different rear beam axle to the 172.
182 cup has different exhaust and inlet manifolds to 172.
182 cup has a different cylinder head to the 172.
182 cup has different front hub carriers, driveshafts, lower wishbone than the 172.
The gearbox ratios are different.
The wheels are different.
The air filter housing differs.
Front splitters and rear boot wing differ.

Surely Phase 2 172 would essentially be equivalent? :S

 

[Advikaz]

This could be good if it maintains good value as stock hatch does. I'd consider this possibly. I would of liked to have seen all the MK2's included. With regards to the 6 point cage, they're alright, but as previously noted I'd prefer more door protection if it was me getting binned.

 

[Jack-C]

I'm very interestedin this.

When would estimated season costs be released? I’m taking it you would alsoneed a race license?

Yes you will need a race licence.

Whatever the estimated season costs are make sure you budget for ALOT more.
The estimated season costs will probably be realistic if the car is reliable, you don't receive any damage and your driving at the back!

If you want to drive at the sharp end the costs will go up.

I think this series sounds great and it would be good to have some more racers on here.

Just remember that even in a budget series you need deep pockets!

 

[Cup_Phil]

and the main problem is you HAVE to use a 182 cup (or cup packed) or trophy, ie the 60mm hubs, daft idea excluding the 172's

ABS is staying currently - daft
16's staying - expensive tyres
GAZ - average (that's me being kind)

its a bit open to cheating too LOL, good idea though!

This sums up my feelings too
I was really excited to see this - but using a 182 cup is insanity. The parts are much harder to find and more expensive (hubs, bearings etc...) and the different bolt pattern on the suspension to every other 172 made..

They should have gone with ph2 172 - there's no problems with panel differences then, who cares if they have a spare wheel well? Exhausts are easier and cheaper to find/replace, hubs, beam, bearings, stub axels - all easier and cheaper to replace.

Insane decision if you ask me - 172 cup would be the ideal car, no ABS to start with, no traction control, no air con.

182 cups are also still a lot more expensive to buy (due to all the extras you get) so it makes it more expensive to enter, and more expensive to maintain the car through the championship.

Such a shame as a 172 championship would be a brilliant thing to enter

 

[Matt@codered]

Bit strange the 172 isn't included, there would be more 172's entered than trophy and 182 cup. Means fuller grids and possibly a reserve list.
Are you sure these cars can't be catered for? Say a class structure within a 'single make' series.

 

[Advikaz]

Yes you will need a race licence.

Whatever the estimated season costs are make sure you budget for ALOT more.
The estimated season costs will probably be realistic if the car is reliable, you don't receive any damage and your driving at the back!

If you want to drive at the sharp end the costs will go up.

I think this series sounds great and it would be good to have some more racers on here.

Just remember that even in a budget series you need deep pockets!

This man speaks truth.

Budgets tend not to incorporate shunts etc. One thing that would possibly put me off is the amount of novices it "could" attract.

As for race licences, contact your local school, ARDS isn't all that expensive to do.

Remember you will go through wheel bearings, bushes, mounts, brakes, drive shafts etc & other consumables at a considerable rate. You will also find that the chaps up the front of the grid will be throwing more money at it. For example fresher engines-brake set ups & tyres etc which can be worth a few tenths, making it hard for those on tighter budgets to compete.

Racing isn't cheap. Even the more affordable forms amount to a lot of money, especially when it all goes pete tong.

 

[ben_p]

Seems a lot of the assumptions on the 172 have been based solely on the Phase 1.




Surely Phase 2 172 would essentially be equivalent? :S

Almost!

Rear body/chassis-172 has a spare wheel well, the 182 cup does not have this. - phase 2 172 does not have this
182 cup has twin exhaust at the rear, 172 does not. - Phase 2 172 does not have this
182 cup has a different rear beam axle to the 172. Phase 2 172 does not have this
182 cup has different exhaust and inlet manifolds to 172. - Phase 2 172 does not have this
182 cup has a different cylinder head to the 172. Phase 2 172 does not have this
182 cup has different front hub carriers, driveshafts, lower wishbone than the 172. - the hubs defo are but not sure on wishbones or DS
The gearbox ratios are different. - think they are the same
The wheels are different. - True
The air filter housing differs. Pretty sure they are the same
Front splitters and rear boot wing differ. True (obvs off 172cup which wouldn't be fair)


There is also the fact the 182 has a 4-2-1 manifold and the 172 has 4-1

 

[ben_p]

If it was more than 10K a year I couldn't do it unless I had a second person or gave up flying (the latter I dont really want to do!)

 

[Advikaz]

If it was more than 10K a year I couldn't do it unless I had a second person or gave up flying (the latter I dont really want to do!)

I would say from experience mate that for a "competitive" set up & a good go at it you'd be a fair bit over that.

But we shall see.

 

[ben_p]

Ahhh bum nevermind

 

[Jack-C]

I agree with Advikaz ^

It all depends what you want from it. Some people are happy just being on the grid and experiencing racing whilst others are only happy if there winning.

Don't be put off the idea just keep it in mind that it will be hard to go racing on the estimated budget

 

[Matt@codered]

Believe me jack- c is definately in the know about budgets. He looks after this...
View attachment 90936

 

[Jack-C]

Believe me jack- c is definately in the know about budgets. He looks after this...

Cheers Matt

Racing certainly isn't cheap but when its going well its defiantly the most rewarding.

 

[Alex H]

Just remember that even in a budget series you need deep pockets!

Not strictly true - I competed for two and a half years in a 'budget' series - I'd hazard a guess that I'm one of the lowest earners on CS, just had to make a few expenditure sacrifices in order to do it, not going out on a weekend, having a boring road car, etc.

 

[clio182nurburg]

I also competed for 2 1/2 years in a budget series, It wasnt mindblowingly expensive, building the car was the main outlay. After a while I was the only person driving to and from the circuits in the racecar. we were with the 750MC for one or two years and they are a freindly bunch of organisers.

can a standard 182 be used with the addition of cup hubs and spoiler? ecu sounds rather expensive but is a must I guess. Also 1100kg inc driver, sounds alot to me!

 

[Jack-C]

What I didn't want happening is the 750 motor club post up a estimated season budget and people on here think great I can go racing on that budget.
Only to realise after building the car, ards test, saftey gear, tools etc etc that its a very expensive hobby.

I just think its best to prepare for the worst in motorsport. An engine failure and bodywork damage can happen at any time and its best to be aware of these costs before you start.

I'm not trying to put anyone off the idea of going racing I'm just trying to make sure the people new to motorsport know the costs and that motorsport isn't all fun and when it goes wrong it costs money. I think a clio championship will be great and I'm sure it will be very popular on here.

 

[Alex H]

can a standard 182 be used with the addition of cup hubs and spoiler? ecu sounds rather expensive but is a must I guess. Also 1100kg inc driver, sounds alot to me!

From the sounds of it, yes.

 

[Jay Payne]

Funny how there are a lot of people 'interested' in this on here. When there are so many other series to race in, in many different cars. Budget will prob be the same as any other club level series. No such thing as cheap motorsport (circuit racing)

 

[Alex H]

Funny how there are a lot of people 'interested' in this on here. When there are so many other series to race in, in many different cars. Budget will prob be the same as any other club level series. No such thing as cheap motorsport (circuit racing)

Because Clio.

 

[shiftspark]

I think its a good idea and as you say, no motorsport is cheap but you dont have to do all the rounds and if it gets people into the sport relatively cheaply then thats great.
One of the big costs that is easy to miss is the traveling to and from the events and time away from home/work.

 

[BIGASH]

Funny how there are a lot of people 'interested' in this on here. When there are so many other series to race in, in many different cars. Budget will prob be the same as any other club level series. No such thing as cheap motorsport (circuit racing)

Got to agree mate, the running costs for this series are in my opinion very slightly higher than the Tintops as the 16" tyre is an expensive limiting factor plus longer weekends so more time off work and more accommodation costs. The main place that this championship will save money is the budget required to build the car as full car build will be around 5-6k all in. If they can regulate it well so people don't spend silly money which I'm sure Bill will manage then it should be good

 

[Cup_Phil]

Maybe some people are slightly put off by the already very fast clio's in the tin tops LOL

And also like you say the car builds would be 5-6k - not 30k like some of us

 

[Fred@BTM]

problem is as i have said, by limiting it to Cup suspension 60mm hubs you're instantly making the series more expensive than it needs to be! a 182 cup/cup packed car goes from £2K say? A ropey 172 can be had for £500 if you look hard enough, instant saving IMO (ok a £500 172 might need a bit of work LOL, but you get the idea!)

the whole "sealed" ecu is a bit extreme, cira £800 cost that isn't needed, stick to the standard ECU and let people do what they want in terms of mapping it, we all know you won't get any power worth bothering with so having a fancy ecu IMO is another pointless cost!

 

[Toastfrenzy]

You also have to look at what they are offering a "Championship" the reason we like the CSCC TT's, amongst other things is because it's a series - a lot less risk of being punted off by someone chasing 1 point to finish 5th or whatever.

As a team not interested in a "championship" as this almost forces you into attending every race as there is a position ladder to climb, who wants to spend all this cash only to appear last on table. Not me that's for sure, this alone would increase the yearly budget.
(hopefully I've read correct as championship)

Apart from the "cheap" outlay to get the car ready £5-6k (think I spent 8K on ours (sorry James!!)) all the other costs would appear to be more, as James says, events over a weekend etc etc....

Once this gets off the ground and people start sourcing the donor car - the re sale value will creep up I suspect.

It can be done on a tight budget - why we are again only doing 3, maybe 4 races this year and not so much testing this year too, up to 3 track days max I suspect. But our reasons for entering are different from say James's (sorry to keep mentioning you James LOL).

I would say to prospective competitors write it all down, step back and think fu*k can I afford that? Believe me if you start and get half way through a build with costs mounting - the resale value will plummet as you'll want to get rid of your half completed car toot sweet.......5k OVNO.......

10 -12K at least, you'll need for the first year............

 

[Sam@NP]

The ECU is too expensive and I think they should allow 15 inch wheels purely for the tyre costs alone.

Interesting concept and will be good to see how it goes, it has the premise of a cheap championship I just hope the organisers are open to change in the first season. Lets all pray to doesn't end up like the MR2s

 

[Fred@BTM]

^or British GT eh Sam! Remind me how much a set of tyres were?

 

[Sir_Dave]

Funny how there are a lot of people 'interested' in this on here. When there are so many other series to race in, in many different cars. Budget will prob be the same as any other club level series. No such thing as cheap motorsport (circuit racing)

I like the idea as it involves clio's and the car modifications are limited, as lets be honest, who wins Tin Tops is still very much dictated by who has the largest budget, well except James lol (sorry). In theory at least, the person who wins in a championship like this should be the one who can drive the best, which is for me, would be the whole point of racing. Its still highly unlikely that i wont do it, as i need to buy a house, but i can but dream.

 

[mark123]

People will still spend a fortune blue printing engines, etc.

When I did grass track racing with unmodified minis some cars were still miles faster than others.

I can understand the 182 cup/FF choice for regs simplification even if it does seem to go against the conventional wisdom.

Will be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[Advikaz]

I like the idea as it involves clio's and the car modifications are limited, as lets be honest, who wins Tin Tops is still very much dictated by who has the largest budget, well except James lol (sorry). In theory at least, the person who wins in a championship like this should be the one who can drive the best, which is for me, would be the whole point of racing. Its still highly unlikely that i wont do it, as i need to buy a house, but i can but dream.

Unfortunatley from my experience it rarely works out that way. Money can buy you a lot including fresh parts (Tyres/brakes/bushes/boxes/mounts/engines/diffs) the list goes on, which will naturally perform better. Not only that you can also buy advice or have someone prep your car for each circuit & set ups are vital from my experience.

Basic budget for Air Asia Clio Cup is roughly 60k. A lot are nearer the 100K mark. & that's a series you buy a car & can't modify it.

 

[Jay Payne]

I like the idea as it involves clio's and the car modifications are limited, as lets be honest, who wins Tin Tops is still very much dictated by who has the largest budget, well except James lol (sorry). In theory at least, the person who wins in a championship like this should be the one who can drive the best, which is for me, would be the whole point of racing. Its still highly unlikely that i wont do it, as i need to buy a house, but i can but dream.

Fit new of everything after each race, have engine rebuilt/blueprinted, test a lot to find all the little tweeks that shave milliseconds off etc. Can still spend a ton of money in a 'cost controlled' series.

My comment wasnt about tintops, just the fact that racing isnt new but people act like this is what they want to do just because its clios having never looked into it that much before. It wont be any cheaper than the 100's of other series out there. Alex got it

 

[sam JFM]

Unfortunatley from my experience it rarely works out that way. Money can buy you a lot including fresh parts (Tyres/brakes/bushes/boxes/mounts/engines/diffs) the list goes on, which will naturally perform better. Not only that you can also buy advice or have someone prep your car for each circuit & set ups are vital from my experience.

Basic budget for Air Asia Clio Cup is roughly 60k. A lot are nearer the 100K mark. & that's a series you buy a car & can't modify it.

Thats the same even if you have open rules BUT you are cutting out the initial cost of the "ohlins" etc!

 

[Jay.S]

Just get a Saxo VTS and do Stockhatch/Rallycross if you want to do a cheap motorsport.

Im entering the 1600cc class within the BTRDA although the 2013 season has been cancelled the MSA are putting together a event for the 2013 season. The MSA event starts in March.

 

[Martin.]

Sounds very interesting this. I would definitely follow it. One of my mates is on the hunt for a 182 currently so he can enter..