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Whilst I see what your saying since the limit on the roads where handling matter is 60mph you dont need to be lower. Howver we buy sporty Clio etc in the first place so we are willing to make a sacrifice after all a dci authenic Clio is fine for everyone and better for the environment so why wate money on a 182 or a Dynamic well its down to choice realy we want a sport looking car and willing to pay the extra (insurance/fuel/buying costs etc). Lowering just further pushes what we will pay and are willing to put up with in order to be unique or make a better car for what we want.
Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 27 December 2004
Thats a good example mate. It doesnt look too low, and you still have realistic arch clearance. A very nice job
am i the only one that disagrees with this one?
no offence meant mate but as youve gone with the rally styly mudflaps aswell i think its better higher...
if you lower a car with coilovers, most people do it to improve than handling and it does so i think thats the only way id lower a car.
for lowering a car with just springs, the ride will be a lot worse, it will feel sportier at first but it wont be as reliable and there are a lot more negatives,
the suspension geometry is wrong - doesnt move up and down from the correct angles - poorer ride
the damper rates are wrong - damping at wrong rates - poorer ride
the springs are to stiff - doesnt allow suspension travel - poorer ride
the cars lower, it will catch on the arches - risk of serious damage to wheels tyres and arches
all in all id say it just isnt worth it for lowering a car on springs, coilovers are they only way to go! i could understand it for seriously modded show cars for just spring but then if it was seriously low i wouldnt want to drive it anywhere
all in my own humble opinion of course
runs and hides.......
yeh the colour is miles out in the picture, its something more like this (sorry about pic, camera phone)
Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 27 December 2004
Hehehe Im 32 in 4 weeks, so perhaps it is an age thing. Also exepecting delivery of my 182Cup on the 20th and wouldnt dream of messing with the balance of the car. Each to their own though. Ive not seen any members cars on here that I think look bad.
I dont really like lowering just for stylings sake.Some people just change the springs and dont take into consideration that the dampers are matched to the OE ones.Lowering can actually make handling worse.As for chopping springs down
Oh,Im 31 so maybe its an old man thing,or maybe its just common sense.
They take to long for me to load anyway so I never see them
Quote: Originally posted by edde on 28 December 2004
Lowered owners crash just like stock height owners just that lowered cars are often pushed more by there drivers.
wouldnt agree with that, iv got a standard 1.2 and youv got to rag it to actually make it move, i push it pretty hard sometimes (esp for a learner driver
IMO
to lower a car to make it handle better round corners (ie coilovers or matched springs dampers and geometry) then it makes the car look sportier
but if you lower a car to make it look more sportier......ok
sportier looks is a bonus from better handling (if it is lower - it doesnt always need to be) and i understand that some cars look better slightly lower sometimes but IMO a lot of people take it to far
but i definately agree spending money on learning to be a better driver is certainly a better way of being quicker than mods, especially lowering!
Ok Ill reword that. Younger drivers (by proportion) are more likely to have lowered cars and crash more (hence why we pay more insurance) as we drive with less risk/less skill/less experiance and at high speed than older drivers/ stock ride height car drivers as we want to enjoy (subjective as it is) our cars more than other drivers. This obviously carries high possible risk.Quote: Originally posted by docter fox on 29 December 2004
wouldnt agree with that, iv got a standard 1.2 and youv got to rag it to actually make it move, i push it pretty hard sometimes (esp for a learner driver
Well after spending lots of there hard earned, the handling is not going to be worse is it.Quote: Originally posted by Willy Williams on 29 December 2004
Ok, lets all stop pretending to be race engineers and flag down a black cab back to reality,
A few points worth considering:
1. Most people who lower their cars are not qualified to comment on its performance as a race car. You have to therefore treat their lowering improved handling statements with the contempt they deserve.
2. Very few people on this forum has ever competed in or been involved in a competitive motor sport environment (track days dont count as really they are just road driving without speed limits). If you havnt, how do you know what you are talking about?
3. Setting up a sports car for a track is a laborious and time consuming task. It takes a team of people (often engineers) working closely with the driver to assess the tyres, suspension, traction, and balance of the car. Increasingly computers are used. Its a very delicate process and takes years of experience to get right. How many race teams turn up at a race track, lower their car by 30 mm and slap on some 17s and actually improve their time?
4. Generally the lower and stiffer your car, the smoother the surface must be for it to perform as is wished. Lower and stiffen your car too much and it will loose grip and traction on a bumpy track. Lower is not always better. But how do we know how low, as none of us are qualified race engineers?
5. Lowering a car that is not used on a track is stupid, given the bumpy state of British roads.
6. In alot of cases a more regular change of tyre, more stringent tyre pressure checks and fitting the correct tyres, would improve handling more than fitting coilovers and then driving round in the winter with 1 mm of tread left on an oll but bald tyre.
7. Those that improve their cars handling with lowering either do it professionally, know what they are doing or get lucky. Most just stumble through and mess up a great car.
8. Oh and lowered Williams look mailto:w@nk">w@nk
IMO, of course
It would be an interresting test get a stock car take it round with a race driver then take it round 30m lower with 17s (no the optimim size wheel/tyre realy) and see if it goes faster. Personally Id love to have my car setup by the race teams and theyd do a better job then any normal coilovers would but I dont have the £ to have a race team set it up, so I take he cheaper of the shelf coilover setup which has been done by a manurfatcurer. Same here
In exactly the same boat! Took thwe words out of my mouth, im still learning my car and dont want to make a mistake like most have, im very lucky with the car i have got at my age and i dont want to throw that all away by stacking it! Hence for now i have gone for looks and not performance.......
Quote: Originally posted by edde on 29 December 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Willy Williams on 29 December 2004
1. Most people who lower their cars are not qualified to comment on its performance as a race car. You have to therefore treat their lowering improved handling statements with the contempt they deserve. To be fair people should say its increased potential but thats by the by. If we prefere/enjoy the new ride/potential then does it matter. If its lower it is very likly to be more potent on the road regardless. Anyway the new springs/ shocks etc are bought from companies who have checked the see that the handling is better/ more in tune for a sporty ride so they are the ones who are testing and making the product for us.
2. Very few people on this forum has ever competed in or been involved in a competitive motor sport environment (track days dont count as really they are just road driving without speed limits). If you havnt, how do you know what you are talking about? We dont, but are you highly experiance enought to have tried all aftermarket setups on everyone cars with the owners views in mind to say that the cars arnt better?
3. Setting up a sports car for a track is a laborious and time consuming task. It takes a team of people (often engineers) working closely with the driver to assess the tyres, suspension, traction, and balance of the car. Increasingly computers are used. Its a very delicate process and takes years of experience to get right. How many race teams turn up at a race track, lower their car by 30 mm and slap on some 17s and actually improve their time?
4. Generally the lower and stiffer your car, the smoother the surface must be for it to perform as is wished. Lower and stiffen your car too much and it will loose grip and traction on a bumpy track. Lower is not always better. But how do we know how low, as none of us are qualified race engineers? Are you qualified to say lower (in whatever for) isnt bettter? The Cup race enginners/Renault decided that the Cup racer setup (~80mm lower than stock I think) is the optimium for what they wanted.
5. Lowering a car that is not used on a track is stupid, given the bumpy state of British roads. That down to the owners choice isnt it? Lower3d owners are willing to put up with some items in return for a lower car (for whatever reason).
6. In alot of cases a more regular change of tyre, more stringent tyre pressure checks and fitting the correct tyres, would improve handling more than fitting coilovers and then driving round in the winter with 1 mm of tread left on an oll but bald tyre. Yes Id agree but since I (and most owners here would as well I imagine) change my /their tyres before they reach the wear markiings does it matter? Changing our tyres before they got 1/2 worn would be more expensive than coilovers though, so why not get coilovers etc and drive with respect to tyre wear/the law anyway?
7. Those that improve their cars handling with lowering either do it professionally, know what they are doing or get lucky. Most just stumble through and mess up a great car. What do you mean professionally? Demon Tweeks set my car up and the coilover company (Id imagine/hope) spent a fair amount of money ensuring the car was more sporty/ more potent. Are these two companies amature in your mind I dont care if you do or dont agree with me but I think Apex /FK / H and R/ Blistein might disagree with you
8. Oh and lowered Williams look mailto:w@nk">w@nk The williams was almost perfect IMO for the sporty driver doesnt mean it was perfect though.
IMO, of course
Youre obviously talking sh*t edde, how could the likes of bilstien and H&R (who lets face it arent known for producing fantastic products nor the OE fitment dampers to the likes of BMW and Porsches sport models) possibly improve on the stock kit, are far be it for us as non qualified, non race engineers, without a degree in physics to comment on what may be a very tangible improvement in a cars handling. Manufacturers will spend many months and countless thousands turning a cars suspension into the best possible set up and not have to take into considerations like the state if local roads, or ability of the owner to realise cars running more negative camber may need to check the inside edge of the tyre for more wear. They also dont have to consider that some owners may have bought the car for its spec or price and may not feel firmer or lower suspension is a liveable thing for improved performance. We as enthusiasts known nothing and couldnt possibly be in a position to comment as to whether a change we have made to a car day in day out has actually improved it over standard.
YEAH f**kING RIGHT !!!!
