OK, all peoples views needed!!! inc capt!

[BenR]

I have a mate who drives a 206 gti....terribly nice bloke, but a bit lost.
Anyway, on the discussion of brakes, he said EBC geenstuff were crap, i agreed, he said red stuff were crap....fair enough...then 1144s were crap, ds2000s were not good enough.....the list goes onto 600deg C rated pads. Problem is that he says that he experienced braked fade with all of these pads!!!
i use 1144s on the track and have never experienced fade at all.

Hes currently running OMP 8000deg C pads !!!!!!

their rated he says from 100-800! no way can a pad cover that operating temp!

so i tell him your never gonna get near 800deg....even in race conditions were talking GT spec pads. i said your not even gonna get near 500 deg on the road.

he wont listen and says the inital bite is great...utter bull....from cold!!

i say its his brake fluid thats wet as he has not changed it in 3yrs or so, and humidity is around 90% all the time here! i think his flud is just boiling at around 300+ deg....so he experiences fade.

no real point to this, just wanna show him the posts you reply.....no swearing please.

linton! you know!!!

 

[SteveJJH]

If youve tried all sorts of pads and youre still getting fade, youve surely got to start to think its something else. In general, you can tell if youre boiling your brake fluid cos the sponginess will remain, even after the brakes cool (air in the system). But if youre merely overheating the fluid, the brakes will fade and then come back as the system cools, giving you similar symptoms to pads overheating. Im running silicone brake fluid in mine with Goodrich hoses, the rest of the braking system is standard. Ive not had any fade problems yet (although I havent been on a track yet).
P.S. What have you got against green stuff? I thought they were quite good.

 

[BenR]

the point was, i dont thinkhe knows what brake fade is hehe.
and i dont like greenstuff as they fell apart on me and were crap from day 1...quality aint too good either

 

[Captain Slarty]

Hi Ben.

Most of the talk of brakes this and brakes that are total bs ..

if he thinks the list you have there are crap.. he needs to get out more lol ...

there are two reasons a pad fades.. glazing of the friction material surface, and / or gasseus build up between the friction material and the disc.

he could well have water contamination as you note, brake fluid is hygroscopic (it absorbs water !)..


he probably has sh*t discs ??.

what he needs is std pads to start with with with simple grooved discs, they will assist the removal of high temp gas build up and also offer a good pedal and bite.

should he still find fade, then a fast road pad is worthwhile.. the stuff he is using is ludicrous.. ..

if he still gets fade, then bigger discs and callipers / pads are the next step.. or... he is simply driving too fast for the conditions and using the brakes far, far too much..

In my experience, many guys n gals use the brakes to make up for constant bad driving..

there ya go...

if he hasnt changed the fluid for 3 years then I worry... a good flush with dot5.1 and copperslip on the pad bearing surfaces is required.

Joe

 

[BenR]

the list is HIS list....i use std pads!

anyway, he has tarox G88s.....but i cant think how he gets enough speed to use teh 800deg pads, which wont work till up to temp, so the initial bite hes talkin about is balls.

HK is a little place with litte roads, i hardly need the upper range of 3rd gear!
and hes only got a pug 206 gti!

i think he jst want the best not for the conditons. but just the best.

 

[sandys]

first thing he could look at checking I guess are that his calipers are actually working right, they can get gunked up and so when you release the brake the pads are still experiencing friction against the disc, this would keep temps pretty high and of course when you need to brake the temps would be even worse.

It could be that he doesnt know how to drive (no offence intended) but some people have a tendency to rest on there foot on the brake using it to slow the car rather than stop, if you want to slow the car get off the accelarator, if you want to stop use the brake and stop, not take 5 mins to slowly come to a halt etc.

How heavy is the Pug 206 Gti, he might try another compound, some one I know of uses 1144 on an Integra and raves about them but his car can only be about 1000kg he recommended Mintex 1177 for my fat lardy Coupe, I have used Greenstuff before and they just died on me, excellent braking much better than standard on my Coupe but after a few repeated applications on the road I might add I would get terrible fade almost proved fatal in my car, my car was 3 yrs old to and I had previously bled the brakes, I actually took the EBC out and went back to standard Fiat pads and chnaged nothing else and have never experienced the problem again, not even on the track

Cheers

 

[Eddd]

Modern high quality pads can handle just about any kind of driving. Stock pads are the recommended thing for driving at the ring in most cars and believe me the place tests brakes! Ive had no problems with my Willy or M3 there with street pads at a fairly decent pace. The test drivers there dont use anything special and they really fly.

Using ultra high temp race pads on the street if foolhardy to say the least.

And seriously, if you dont flush your brake fluid yearly at least, you have no business driving hard.

 

[BenR]

and ive told him everything weve all said!

 

[Nick Read]

Well Ive run DS2000 on the track for half hour sessions at a time but with DOT5.1 fluid and braided lines. No fade whatsoever and anyone whos done track work will know that thats about as hardcore as you can get on braking systems.

It is quite obviously a problem with the fluid if hes not changed it for 3 years. In fact it couldnt be any more straightforward!

 

[TB1]

Ok,
Brake fade and what is it?
Basically brake fade is when the heat is transferred from the discs (and hubs) into the brake fluid, this causes the brake fluid to expand and boil.... this in turn leaves gaps in the line, now, you have gaps in the line so you dont get pressure..... its not really to do with the pads, even though you get good pads and bad pads its to do with having none braided hoses and crap brake fluid.
Id suggest getting (as nick has ) DOT 5.1 fluid and braided hoses fitted That should cure the brake fade if not then a larger set of discs and calipers are called for (if he drives like a maniac and uses the brakes all the time)!
SandyS,
for god sake dont shove Mintex 1177s on your car!!!!!!!!
These are race spec pads and need LOTS of warming up!!
I would suggest you do like me and get yourself some 1155s instead which are a fast road pad and NOT a competition pad!!

Tony

 

[TB1]

BenR,
A quick question for your friend...
does he have his car serviced by Peugeot?
if so why havnt they changed his brake fluid (every 2 years) or if he doesnt have it serviced then its his own fault!

Tony

 

[Captain Slarty]

Hi TB, I disagree with your explanation of brake fade m8.. sorry ..

you have described a contributary factor, not the actual cause.

it is the pads to disc area that fade occurs.

Joe

 

[TB1]

Sorry Joe i definately have to disagree here,
its the brake fluid thats the contributing factor, the pads to discs are a variable but it is the fact that the water in the fluid expands leaving no pressure in the pedal (due to there being no fluid there to give you pressure) this is what fade is!
(thus the reason i have braided hoses, Brembo 4 pots and DOT 5.1 )
Alot of the older imprezas with 2 pots use (and still do) get brake fade, its still caused by heat but its the transferance thats the problem..... (and 206GTI brakes are pretty good )

Tony

 

[BenR]

hmmm....
i have to agree with both of you, as in their are may facotrs to fade. But fluid is the major concern....you can get pads to operate at whatever temp you want.
in zhu hai we have terrible probs with fade...mainly due to fluid boiling, so we had to develop a ceramic backing to the pads to stop heat soak.

the pads only run at 600 deg, but its still too much for the fluid!
we tried a recirculating system, but it lost all feel in the pedal.

 

[Eddd]

Yes, Joe is right about the fade occuring at the pad/disc interface. Under extreme heat the area loses its ability to apply friction. Think of it as the material going all greasy. You still have a hard pedal and feel resistance but it seems as if you are driving on ice! Quite exciting actually.

The modern high quality pads are generally quite resistant to fade but not that many years years ago things were much different!

 

[TB1]

Ben,
one of the things that Subaru changed when the cars were fitted with 4pots was they added a cooling duct to force cooler air onto the brakes, this duct is fitted into the front bumper next to the fog lights (those tacky orange things) this helps but id still suggest that in a tropical climate like HK you would need a silicone based brake fluid and braided hoses to eradicate this problem fully

Tony

 

[BenR]

http://www.thesoulgirl.com/Smilies/capacity.jpg

 

[Captain Slarty]

No probs Tony, thats what a forum is about ! ..

However, we are still in disagreement here lol..

a few other definitions...

BRAKE FADE

There are three types of brake fade. The first is the conventional burning off of resins as the pads are being broken (bedded) in. This is known as green fade and occurs when gases from burnt resins are trapped between the pads and rotors. When this happens the pedal feels firm but the car will not stop. The second type of fade is when the pads are forced to work outside their temperature continuum. This is the point at which the resins burn off rapidly, and the pad has accelerated wear. The third type of fade is glazing. This is when the resins, which soften during active braking, then cool and solidify on the face of the pads. This glazed surface is hard and slick, and will not give the same coefficient of friction as an unglazed or new pad.

When this occurs, increasing pressure on the pedal is the drivers normal reaction, in this case, the fade that has occured will, by the increased clamping action of pressing the pedal harder, cause a high temp reaction in the pad / disc / calliper (way above the normal operating range).. this can cause fluid boil if the fluid is not capable of standning the temp, or, hygroscopic incursion has occured.

when the fluid boils - or to be more precise, the water in the fluid boils, yes, you are screwed...

I had this occur on a night rally many many moons past ..

the discs were actually glowing red at the end of the selective, the top of the res seized too..... that was not water.. just before the days of dot 4 even..

Joe..

 

[Captain Slarty]

Hi gen TOny..

braided hoses are for 2 purposes only.

1.. to stop damge to the flexy pipe during off road excursions lol..

2. to keep the pedal feel hard due to lack of flex in the flexy pipes..

again, sowwwwy... but nowt to do with fade..

joe.

 

[TB1]

Joe,
i cant remember back to the days of the MK1 escort..... DOH!!! yes i can
But i know what you mean, but a major factor is also to do with maintenance and changing your fluids regulary, the modern discs and pads have virtually eliminated the type of fade you had in your rally car, bad driving could contribute to modern cars and glazing of the pads, but most motorists shouldnt be trying to chuck their 1.2s etc round corners slamming the brakes on all the time.... i think that we both know that a slightly slower but more fluent driving style is much better for the car and the brakes but i still occasionally get to "clean" my discs and pads and seeing the needle drop off from 120..90..70..40..20..0 is quite rewarding

Tony

 

[TB1]

Joe,
ill tell you what does actually makes a big difference is a Master Cylnder (support) Bracket for the brakes to stop them moving, now that gives you more feel

Tony

 

[Captain Slarty]

TONY !!!

M8 !!



on both those last posts... we FULLY agree.

We gotta meet for that beer sometime dood.

Joe

 

[Nick Read]

Well I think the important thing is that the brake system is just that, a system. Neglect any part of it and your brakes will let you down when you need them most.

So get decent fast road pads like DS2000 (which BTW dont need bedding in and work from cold), braided hoses to keep the pedal firm, DOT5.1 fluid to get the highest boiling temp, change your fluid regularly etc etc.

Just having a set of cross-drilled fancy discs wont help much if your lines are bulging out all over the place and the fluid is boiling!

 

[BenR]

i find the new syntheitc castrol response super the best, Dot 4 but a high temp grade! and soesnt need shanging to reguarly!

 

[sandys]

Hi Tony, cheers for that, the guy who recommeded the 1177 to me seemed to think the would do the business on a Coupe, he did a lot of track days as I do, but a Scooby is probably similar car in terms of weight, power and braking ability etc. I dont agree that fade is just down to fluid, simply because when I experienced fade with the GreenStuff I just put a set of Fiat standard pads in and never had the problem again, as eddd mentioned You still have a hard pedal and feel but it seems as if you are driving on ice, 60 laps of Castle combe on standard pads and no fade (a break every 4th lap to cooldown)

 

[BenR]

you live near coombe!!
so do i!

 

[sandys]

Pretty close to it, live in Bristol and work in Corsham which is even closer to it, its my local track good fun there, wish I could afford to drive on there more regularly.

 

[BenR]

i live in bristol!!
REDLAND