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Brake fade with decent brake setup?



Tehxman116

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 2 RS172 Cup
Hey guys. I experienced brake fade after quite a few hard laps at Donington National on the 16th. Can't remember how many laps but I was sticking to 15 minute stints. Current brake setup is as follows.

Standard front discs and calipers with PBS Prorace pads. Brake ducts, Millers 300 brake fluid, fully braided lines all round. Standard rear discs, calipers and pads.

It wasn't boiled fluid as the brake pedal doesn't get spongy and braking force returns to normal once I cool off for a bit. Could the standard rear pads be overheating? Front discs? Or possibly the front pads? Although PBS say they're rated to 800c so I doubt that.

Just wanted some opinions as to what needs to be done to sort this.

Cheers :)
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
They work much better with the PBS rears as well.

I've tried just fronts and the performance wasn't as good.

That should solve your problems.
 

Tehxman116

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 2 RS172 Cup
They work much better with the PBS rears as well.

I've tried just fronts and the performance wasn't as good.

That should solve your problems.
That's the route I was thinking of going down. I've seen you recommend PBS front and rears in a different thread when I was searching around.

I just keep seeing everywhere that the rears don't do much, although it definitely feels like they do to me.
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
That's the route I was thinking of going down. I've seen you recommend PBS front and rears in a different thread when I was searching around.

I just keep seeing everywhere that the rears don't do much, although it definitely feels like they do to me.
I don't think they do quite as much on the 172 Cup because of the lack of ABS, but they get fairly warm on mine 😅

You can see a good amount of pad material transfer too, so they definitely work.
 

RatTrick

ClioSport Club Member
I've seen a few posts from the track car owners saying that matching uprated pads front and rear definatly helps and that the idea that the rear brakes don't do much isn't correct.
 

Tehxman116

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 2 RS172 Cup
I don't think they do quite as much on the 172 Cup because of the lack of ABS, but they get fairly warm on mine 😅

You can see a good amount of pad material transfer too, so they definitely work.
Well thanks for the recommendation :) I've got another evening booked there on 11th of August, I'll report back with my findings after changing the pads on the rear. If that doesn't sort it I'll look at other options
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
Well thanks for the recommendation :) I've got another evening booked there on 11th of August, I'll report back with my findings after changing the pads on the rear. If that doesn't sort it I'll look at other options
Make sure your rear calipers are working smoothly too.

Should be able to move the sliders and turn the piston by hand easily.
 

JB21

ClioSport Club Member
Small brake set ups like on the Clio have limits due to the lack of heat dissipation. Even with the best pads available like DS1.11 I would start to get fade after long stints. Track spec rears would help balance the load out as mentioned .
 

Eddie555

ClioSport Club Member
  Q7 2018 & 172 Cup.
My last setup at Donny was PBS front and rear , Brembo HC discs and Motul RBF600 brake fluid.. im a really late braker and during 15-20 sessions at 1.25-1.27 lap times, i never had any brake fade.. My car is a dedicated track car.. The rear do a lot more than people think they do..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
The rear brakes dont do a lot, but they certainly do enough to make a difference IMO
 

GrahamS

ClioSport Club Member
I also have this issue where my brakes just feel a bit wooden after only a couple of laps. I've got DS 1.11s but think it's the system limits. I find brake ducting and deflector plates help a lot.
 

Martin_172

ClioSport Club Member
I've seen a few posts from the track car owners saying that matching uprated pads front and rear definatly helps and that the idea that the rear brakes don't do much isn't correct.
This, at the rear on the van I've got fresh callipers, lines, fluid and a set of standard discs and pads and after a good blast the rears are getting HOT! so they must be doing something lol
 

Amos91

ClioSport Club Member
Fade was better on the DS1.11s than PBS in my experience. To be fair I wasn't impressed with the PBS wear, did 85-90% of a set in one day at Bedford.
 
PBS pads front and rear, shitty quality discs, 100mm brake ducts, braided hoses all round and ATE Super 200 fluid

Didn't boil or fade after 15 minute stints even with my fat chunky leg stabbing as hard as possible on the brakes. Towards the end of the day I managed to warp one of the discs but that was because they were made from Chinesium and I was too tight to swap them😂
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
Fade was better on the DS1.11s than PBS in my experience. To be fair I wasn't impressed with the PBS wear, did 85-90% of a set in one day at Bedford.
Depends on the driver I suppose, but I get about 3 track days out of the fronts.

Spoke to a guy who races in the Civic Cup and he sees the fronts off in one 20 minute race 😂
 

Amos91

ClioSport Club Member
Depends on the driver I suppose, but I get about 3 track days out of the fronts.

Spoke to a guy who races in the Civic Cup and he sees the fronts off in one 20 minute race 😂
I did about 200 miles at Bedford on a hot day... so fairly long day out.

But vs DS1.11s and their wear rate, the initial cost saving is a false economy.
 

Eddie555

ClioSport Club Member
  Q7 2018 & 172 Cup.
Depends on the driver I suppose, but I get about 3 track days out of the fronts.

Spoke to a guy who races in the Civic Cup and he sees the fronts off in one 20 minute race
Same here.. 3 trackdays per PBS fronts..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
 

Crazylegs

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
I've got to admit, I'm not overly impressed with PBS pads. I had a set on my DC5 and they're garbage both as a daily and on track. I had track fade at Anglesey after about 6 laps and I found them to be poor under normal driving, then again the standard Brembo set up on the Integra is terrible anyway.
 

JB21

ClioSport Club Member
I must have got 5 track days out of my DS1.11 on the Clio and they still had over half left on them. I also used them on the Octavia VRS and the wear was brilliant on that too.

Was gutted when I found out Ferodo dont supply them for the MR2, best pad ive used by far and I've tried a lot of different track pads.
 

stebat

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
I’m just about to order some blue stuff as I haven’t seen many comments on them so thought I’d give them I go. I’ll report back when test, not till September now though 😔
 

JB21

ClioSport Club Member
I’m just about to order some blue stuff as I haven’t seen many comments on them so thought I’d give them I go. I’ll report back when test, not till September now though 😔
Run them on my MR2, good for the money (£70 for fronts) but do lack bite, they are consistent in coefficient though. They've lasted for 8 track days.
 

Crazylegs

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
I must have got 5 track days out of my DS1.11 on the Clio and they still had over half left on them. I also used them on the Octavia VRS and the wear was brilliant on that too.

Was gutted when I found out Ferodo dont supply them for the MR2, best pad ive used by far and I've tried a lot of different track pads.
A set of these on the 182 are on my list of things to get, sounds like they're a great pad.
 

Hollidog

ClioSport Club Member
  182
DS1.11 here too, cracking pad, up to 4 days on mine so far and looks like they'll do another 4 easy. I do now swap them at the beginning and end of track days back to a Pagid road pad as the squeal is a bit too much and I don't think the pad likes not being heated all the way through the material in road use.
 

George@RTR_Parts

ClioSport Trader
  need BRAKES? PM me

George@RTR_Parts

ClioSport Trader
  need BRAKES? PM me
If everything is working on the cars as it should be brakes wise, no sticky rear calipers, compensator valve not seize etc , then the brake bias on the 172/182 is roughly 66/34% spilt front/rear .

Putting better pads than OE spec in the rears, will help scrub speed off, help the car brake flatter, and the rear pads will last longer if OE spec on track

It's horses for courses, and cost vs performance . I think a lot of the threads were people are saying don't put better rear pads in as they do nothing, are more aimed towards the odd track use side of things. Were you could run a mild upgrade pad in the front and "get away with" running OE pads in the rear , if mostly road use and odd track day

But make sure the rear calipers are actually doing what they should be as a lot if haven't been refurb'd/replaced will now start to show their age, so no point putting decent pads in tired calipers

"text book" compound wise on a FWD hot hatch like the Clios would be

front DS1.11, rear DS2500
front Mintex M1155 , rear M1144

and so on

You can play around with compounds, and find a set up that works for you and your car. Plenty people who have built track and race cars, often redo the brake lines through out, get rid of the rear compensator valve and fit an in car bias valve . Again depends how far you want to go (y)
 

Tomotek

ClioSport Club Member
The rear brakes dont do a lot, but they certainly do enough to make a difference IMO
I have to agree with Kev.. the rears really don’t do anything, during hard braking, with the weight transfer you get you only have about 15% of the cars weight over the rear axle.. (doesn’t take much to lock the rears) I run std rear discs and OEM pads on our race car (still on the same discs and pads I fitted to the car about 2years ago, 10 track days and 8 race weekends in) .. Changing rear pad friction material will just change the brake balance really, making it easier to lock the rears (unless u have a bias valve and put more bias to front, but then negating extra friction)

It’s all about the heat dissipation of the front discs.. brake fade is just caused by a disc getting too hot and not being able to convert anymore kinetic energy into heat.. the harder you press nothing is going to happen.. what you need is better brake cooling or a larger surface area to dissipate the heat, I.e a larger disc or a better vented disc etc.. pad material really doesn’t affect brake fade at all.. all pad material really does is affect the friction coefficient which in turn affects how fast the rotors heat up (which is what you feel as bite) .. one thing to consider too is you can only ever decelerate as quickly as the grip of your tyre allows (something a lot of people overlook when upgrading their brakes)

I use:
- OE rear discs and Pads
- Brembo HC discs and CL RC8 pads in std calipers at the front

- new custom brake scoops and ducting to caliper being fitted to aid in our 45mins races.
 
Last edited:

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
I have to agree with Kev.. the rears really don’t do anything, during hard braking, with the weight transfer you get you only have about 15% of the cars weight over the rear axle.. (doesn’t take much to lock the rears) I run std rear discs and OEM pads on our race car (still on the same discs and pads I fitted to the car about 2years ago, 10 track days and 8 race weekends in) .. Changing rear pad friction material will just change the brake balance really, making it easier to lock the rears (unless u have a bias valve and put more bias to front, but then negating extra friction)

It’s all about the heat dissipation of the front discs.. brake fade is just caused by a disc getting too hot and not being able to convert anymore kinetic energy into heat.. the harder you press nothing is going to happen.. what you need is better brake cooling or a larger surface area to dissipate the heat, I.e a larger disc or a better vented disc etc.. pad material really doesn’t affect brake fade at all.. all pad material really does is affect the friction coefficient which in turn affects how fast the rotors heat up (which is what you feel as bite) .. one thing to consider too is you can only ever decelerate as quickly as the grip of your tyre allows (something a lot of people overlook when upgrading their brakes)

I use:
- OE rear discs and Pads
- Brembo HC discs and CL RC8 pads in std calipers at the front

- new custom brake scoops and ducting to caliper being fitted to aid in our 45mins races.
Selling a brake cooling kit soon then? 😉
 

stebat

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Excellent well informed information here guy’s, thanks for all you input 👍🏼What day are you at Oulton Park? I have just been but would like to go again soon.
 

Tomotek

ClioSport Club Member
Excellent well informed information here guy’s, thanks for all you input What day are you at Oulton Park? I have just been but would like to go again soon.
Great track isn’t it, can’t wait to go back!.. I say ‘testing’ it will actually be during practice/qualifying of our first race this year.. round 2 of the MSV Trackday championship, 8th August
 

Crazylegs

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 182
Great track isn’t it, can’t wait to go back!.. I say ‘testing’ it will actually be during practice/qualifying of our first race this year.. round 2 of the MSV Trackday championship, 8th August
Just out of interest, will your braided brake lines be for sale soon at all? I noticed they're on your website under your Clio race car spec page.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
I have to agree with Kev.. the rears really don’t do anything, during hard braking, with the weight transfer you get you only have about 15% of the cars weight over the rear axle.. (doesn’t take much to lock the rears) I run std rear discs and OEM pads on our race car (still on the same discs and pads I fitted to the car about 2years ago, 10 track days and 8 race weekends in) .. Changing rear pad friction material will just change the brake balance really, making it easier to lock the rears (unless u have a bias valve and put more bias to front, but then negating extra friction)

It’s all about the heat dissipation of the front discs.. brake fade is just caused by a disc getting too hot and not being able to convert anymore kinetic energy into heat.. the harder you press nothing is going to happen.. what you need is better brake cooling or a larger surface area to dissipate the heat, I.e a larger disc or a better vented disc etc.. pad material really doesn’t affect brake fade at all.. all pad material really does is affect the friction coefficient which in turn affects how fast the rotors heat up (which is what you feel as bite) .. one thing to consider too is you can only ever decelerate as quickly as the grip of your tyre allows (something a lot of people overlook when upgrading their brakes)

I use:
- OE rear discs and Pads
- Brembo HC discs and CL RC8 pads in std calipers at the front

- new custom brake scoops and ducting to caliper being fitted to aid in our 45mins races.
I think you are disagreeing lol
I upgrade the back. If the suspension is not too soft you get a benefit. I find the chassis more stable and doesnt work the front brakes as much as bias is not pushed forward. I'm going more aggressive on the rear of the Clio with its race suspension set up to try to work all four corners as hard as possible.

Those ducts have just stopped me purchasing any other ducting kit! I want! Send a prototype for independant testing lol
 

Tomotek

ClioSport Club Member
I think you are disagreeing lol
I upgrade the back. If the suspension is not too soft you get a benefit. I find the chassis more stable and doesnt work the front brakes as much as bias is not pushed forward. I'm going more aggressive on the rear of the Clio with its race suspension set up to try to work all four corners as hard as possible.

Those ducts have just stopped me purchasing any other ducting kit! I want! Send a prototype for independant testing lol
Haha yeah i re-read your comment but by that time i couldn't edit mine...we'll have to disagree on that one then lol.. Its way to easy to lock the rears on ours.. If we could get a better weight distribution with more weight at the back then id look at upgrading the rears... There's just not enough vertical load on the rear tyres during hard braking to be able to resist the brake torque, even with std pads etc..

Do you have an internal bias adjustor.. my only thinking is I will have moved the bias back from std with our adjustor, and the rear OEM pads cope fine.... if no internal bias adjustment then you effectively do the same thing by changing to a higher friction aftermarket pad... 2 ways to get the same effect.

And thanks!.. we wanted to do a brake duct that fitted nicely into the exisiting fog surround with no drilling of the outer bumper surface or crazy amount of cutting required. Ours just need the fog light removing and two holes drilling behind the existing fog surround area. They can be removed and returned to std if desired that way.. Nice plug and play solution is what were after.
 


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