Brake fade with decent brake setup?

[Tomotek]

Just out of interest, will your braided brake lines be for sale soon at all? I noticed they're on your website under your Clio race car spec page.

While we build our second car we are looking to turn everything we do into a kit to sell to others. I can certainly add brake lines to the list to look at.. so many different options tho.. (just the braided corners, internal hardlines, internal bias kit, ABS, non ABS, cup master cylinder, std master cylinder) starts to get a little tricky. Any ideas are welcome

 

[Kev@KAM]

Do you have an internal bias adjustor.. my only thinking is I will have moved the bias back from std with our adjustor, and the rear OEM pads cope fine.... if no internal bias adjustment then you effectively do the same thing by changing to a higher friction aftermarket pad... 2 ways to get the same effect.

Standard bias for me. I am on the mindset that the car should remain able to be reverted to standard easily. It is a Trophy so I have to behave

 

[Martin.]

I run standard Renault stuff on the rear of my track car. Been in there for years and still plenty left.

Standard discs with CL RC6s on the front with good fluid and air cooling. Never had an issue and the previous set lasted me so well, including through a couple of winters road use that I didn't want to try anything else. The only downside is the squeal like a tw*t on the road.

 

[Tomotek]

Standard bias for me. I am on the mindset that the car should remain able to be reverted to standard easily. It is a Trophy so I have to behave

That would make sense then as they are setup as std to not lock the rears that easily.. so yeah upgraded rear pads would be a benefit to shift some bias to the back while still not locking up. [emoji1360]

Haha yeah, needs to keep its value still

 

[McGherkin]

I was under the belief that 172 Cups are locked to approx 77-23% because there's no ABS to stop the rears locking under braking when the car is empty. ABS cars can run a higher rear effort but only when there is weight in the back to keep the tyres pressed down.

Hence the suggestions that the rear brakes should be left stock, but it applies more to track cars than road cars, because track cars are even lighter at the back and often don't have ABS. You certainly see a LOT of clio race cars (particularly rally cars for some reason) pirouetting under braking and that is presumably because the owners have disabled the ABS but not done anything to reduce the rear effort.

In answer to the OP though, cooling cooling cooling.

 

[Crazylegs]

While we build our second car we are looking to turn everything we do into a kit to sell to others. I can certainly add brake lines to the list to look at.. so many different options tho.. (just the braided corners, internal hardlines, internal bias kit, ABS, non ABS, cup master cylinder, std master cylinder) starts to get a little tricky. Any ideas are welcome

Thanks mate, I think you'd have a few buyers for sure.

 

[Tehxman116]

Okay so reporting back! Had the Donington evening session today. Fitted Brembo HC blank discs, PBS rear pads (Brakes were bedded in properly before track time) and fresh Millers 300+ brake fluid. All calipers were checked and work perfectly. Brake ducts aim right at the discs and are pretty close.

Air temp was around 35 degrees so pretty hot. Brakes simply weren't up to the task at all. Max 3 fast laps and they started fading. It's definitely the front pads giving up. I'll be changing to something else before my next track day

 

[frayz]

View attachment 1487159
View attachment 1487160

I’ll take a pic on the car once fitted up [emoji1360]


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Shotgun!!!
I’m melting my ducts so can’t wait for these.

 

[frayz]

 

[plenty]

Air temp was around 35 degrees so pretty hot. Brakes simply weren't up to the task at all. Max 3 fast laps and they started fading. It's definitely the front pads giving up. I'll be changing to something else before my next track day

PBS front pads are the weak link.

 

[green]

The best setup I’ve tried for standard was RC6 front pads... Tarox 2000 vented disc front... standard disc rear with RC5 pads.... ducting to wheel well and RBF 600 brake fluid.
That setup can do half hour stints with 0 fade.

I’ve now gone with the brembo 4 pot setup with ds1.11 pads.and 2 piece vented discs..it’s still not as good as the standard setup. The pads have worn well but it’ll be RC6 pads for the Brembo’s next

 

[plenty]

RC6 are great pads but run extremely hot, hotter than most pads, meaning ducts are essential and even then there's a risk of boiling the fluid.

I've had good success so far with standard brakes, DS1.11 front and DS2500 rears, good fluid and removing the front arch liners.

 

[Hollidog]

The best setup I’ve tried for standard was RC6 front pads... Tarox 2000 vented disc front... standard disc rear with RC5 pads.... ducting to wheel well and RBF 600 brake fluid.
That setup can do half hour stints with 0 fade.

I’ve now gone with the brembo 4 pot setup with ds1.11 pads.and 2 piece vented discs..it’s still not as good as the standard setup. The pads have worn well but it’ll be RC6 pads for the Brembo’s next

Do you think the 4pots are worth it? I need to get my calipers refurbed anyway and I was looking at going to 4pot. I've heard mixed reviews some saying its not worth all the hassle and expense. I'm also on 15" oz so I think I would need to have them machined as well.

 

[Crazylegs]

What is good for a road car apart from DS2500, anything else suitable or are they about the best you can get?

 

[frayz]

What is good for a road car apart from DS2500, anything else suitable or are they about the best you can get?

Personally, i hate 2500s with a passion. I use Pagid RS29 front and RS4-2 rear. Daily driven and nothing but great breaking performance with no issues.
Work from cold, get better with temp, great disc & pad life. Only downside is theyre dusty and a bit expensive.

 

[Kev@KAM]

Personally, i hate 2500s with a passion. I use Pagid RS29 front and RS4-2 rear. Daily driven and nothing but great breaking performance with no issues.
Work from cold, get better with temp, great disc & pad life. Only downside is theyre dusty and a bit expensive.

You spend 99% more than 99% of Clio owners lol
DS2500 and even Mintex M1144 are a little dead on the pedal but they work well enough. I think I may swap out for PBS pads for road use to see if they work better for me before I go full bore with track pads and suspension

 

[frayz]

You spend 99% more than 99% of Clio owners lol
DS2500 and even Mintex M1144 are a little dead on the pedal but they work well enough. I think I may swap out for PBS pads for road use to see if they work better for me before I go full bore with track pads and suspension

I dunno what to say to that. So what percentage does that put me in? 🤷‍♂️

 

[Kev@KAM]

Okay so reporting back! Had the Donington evening session today. Fitted Brembo HC blank discs, PBS rear pads (Brakes were bedded in properly before track time) and fresh Millers 300+ brake fluid. All calipers were checked and work perfectly. Brake ducts aim right at the discs and are pretty close.

Air temp was around 35 degrees so pretty hot. Brakes simply weren't up to the task at all. Max 3 fast laps and they started fading. It's definitely the front pads giving up. I'll be changing to something else before my next track day

This time of year is the hardest on brakes. Spend some money. Move to a proper pad compound. Try Winmax W6 - its not cheap but similar price to DS1.11 but with more bite.

 

[Kev@KAM]

RC6 are great pads but run extremely hot, hotter than most pads, meaning ducts are essential and even then there's a risk of boiling the fluid.

I've had good success so far with standard brakes, DS1.11 front and DS2500 rears, good fluid and removing the front arch liners.

Metallic pads conduct heat into the caliper piston more than ceramic. This is the trade off to some extent for better bite and modulation the metallic compounds give.
This is not an issue solely with CL but Winmax, Pagid and all the other higher end manufacturers using metallic blends in the top race pads.
You can get titanium shims as well as other types of heat shielding plates. It keeps heat in the pad (which is ok as metallic pads cope with higher temps better)

Personally, i hate 2500s with a passion. I use Pagid RS29 front and RS4-2 rear. Daily driven and nothing but great breaking performance with no issues.
Work from cold, get better with temp, great disc & pad life. Only downside is theyre dusty and a bit expensive.

Its easiest to follow the crowd but always better to forge your own path. You learn more

 

[Crazylegs]

Thanks again guys for all the responses, it's much appreciated. Marc [emoji106]

 

[plenty]

Metallic pads conduct heat into the caliper piston more than ceramic. This is the trade off to some extent for better bite and modulation the metallic compounds give.

Indeed but RC6 is particularly bad for this IME. I've run other sintered compounds such as Carbotech and RC6 runs hotter than any them and hotter than other CL compounds such as RC5+.

I would recommend Carbotech XP10 over RC6 - very similar performance and pedal feel, but much better heat management and durability (RC6s don't last long).

 

[frayz]

Indeed but RC6 is particularly bad for this IME. I've run other sintered compounds such as Carbotech and RC6 runs hotter than any them and hotter than other CL compounds such as RC5+.

I would recommend Carbotech XP10 over RC6 - very similar performance and pedal feel, but much better heat management and durability (RC6s don't last long).

In addition to that , Ian at Carbotech is super helpful.

 

[Kev@KAM]

Indeed but RC6 is particularly bad for this IME. I've run other sintered compounds such as Carbotech and RC6 runs hotter than any them and hotter than other CL compounds such as RC5+.

I would recommend Carbotech XP10 over RC6 - very similar performance and pedal feel, but much better heat management and durability (RC6s don't last long).

I think this is the difference in conduction of heat between a sintered metal pad (100% metal) and metallic composite (a blend with other materials)

 

[green]

@Hollidog. I did the change to the 4 pots for looks and a bit of weight saving. The Brembo’s are good, the brake peddle is a bit longer on the ph1 so I’ve got a master cylinder from a 197 that I’ve got to fit to try and shorten the peddle. I thought I’d try the ds1:11 pad as they have great reviews. They are ok and don’t over heat but I don’t think they have the bite of the RC6 but I’ll see after I’ve changed the master cylinder.
If you have spare cash then they are worth it. I’m running 15” wheels as well so had them machined 5mm.

 

[Kev@KAM]

DS1.11 is more like the RC5 for friction co-efficient.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

My old ph1 172 track car I had
283x26mm 2 piece front rotors
4 pot Brembo callipers
RC5+ pads
ABS delete with Mondeo mk1 bias valves off the master cylinder
Cup master cylinder
And the rear pads were ds2500 iirc

Balance was perfect. And I'll be going down the same route on the next build except I've got DS1.11 pads in the callipers I took off my old Megane.

Also worth noting I could hammer it all day and the brakes wouldn't let up, no fade no matter how long the session.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

DS1.11 is more like the RC5 for friction co-efficient.

They are very similar, the RC5 seem a bit dustier but I find the dust is a little bit less aggressive than the DS1.11.

Both great pads

 

[stebat]

I’m just about to order some blue stuff as I haven’t seen many comments on them so thought I’d give them I go. I’ll report back when test, not till September now though 😔

Shite by the way!!

 

[Crazylegs]

Shite by the way!!

Ha ha ha! He definitely won't be ordering them now lol

 

[stebat]

That was me and that’s my review! 3 laps they lasted with decent bite!! After that I thought I had air in the system. Bled it twice, no air! Just shite pads spongey as hell

 

[Asher172]

View attachment 1487159
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I’ll take a pic on the car once fitted up [emoji1360]


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Interested to see these fitted!

 

[Tomotek]

Interested to see these fitted!

 

[Kev@KAM]

When are these going to be available?

 

[Tomotek]

When are these going to be available?

Im not sure yet.. still working through the caliper side of the kit as what I made for ours isnt really cost effective to batch produce... not likely this side of christmas though

 

[Hyperhatch]

Im not sure yet.. still working through the caliper side of the kit as what I made for ours isnt really cost effective to batch produce... not likely this side of christmas though

How about the splitter/spoiler? Will they be available after the brake ducts? I don’t mind running a test set if you need to trial them on a silver car.........😉😂