phase 1 172 V's cup (or dc2) on track

[andye30m3]

I've got a sunflower phase 1 172 and having followed a trophy round spa last week I'm considering a change as I find the body roll on the phase 1 a bit excessive and to be honest having kept my last car for years fancy chopping and changing for a while.

I can't afford the trophy, but is a standard 172 cup much better on track than a standard phase 1 172? any quicker?

I don't want to modify the phase 1 as I also sprint in the standard production class.

also lastly how does a standard integra dc2 compare to a standard clio on track? anyone owned both?

 

[Butler]

I owned a DC2 in my cup at the ring, granted there wasnt much in it.

 

[nathanH]

I had a ph1 and my flat mate had a dc2. The honda is alot more raw and slightly faster than the ph1... but if you can afford a Trophy get one, they own!

 

[Steve]

Were you guys at the ring on Sun, parked at Brunchen?

 

[andye30m3]

Can't really afford the trophy but was hoping the cup was 1/2 way there, Not 100% sure about the DC2 I beat 1 sprinting at lydden but have heard so much good about them I thought It maybe down to the driver not knowing the track as well.

Yeh we were there went to SPA the monday before, Switzland Tuesday/wednesday, Italy Thursday, Austria friday and the ring from Sat - Tuesday. Clio didn't miss a beat all week.

Only did 6 laps of the ring as it was a bit busy for novices most of sunday and on monday a guy in our hotel managed to right off his M3 CSL along with a GT3 RS closing the road early.

What cars we're you in? I took loads of photo's (most rubbish) but might have a few if you were doing laps.

 

[Chris205]

and on monday a guy in our hotel managed to right off his M3 CSL along with a GT3 RS closing the road early.

ouch my two favourite cars ever

 

[andye30m3]

ouch my two favourite cars ever

It was a bit of a shame I wonder if the porsche might have been worth fixing but the M3 IMHO was well and truly knackard.

That seams to be the risk with the ring, they both came over a blind crest to find mud on the road, not sure if there was any contact between the two. We came over a few minutes latter but due to me being the slowest thing ever round the ring we managed to save the clio!

 

[Tav]

If your only issue is the body roll and you wanting less of it for track driving all you need to do is get some different suspension. That's all that really separates the Trophy from the other Clio's...ok you won't be able to afford/find Trophy dampers but for the fraction of the price of a new car, you could make your car feel like a totally different car with some coilovers. Does the standard production class not allow you to change the springs/dampers? Worth looking into.

The Integra is a fine car, but it is getting on a bit. No trouble keeping up in a Clio but the driving experience in the Integra is great...sweet engine, great driving position...I'd be torn between the two. If you want to drive on track the Integra needs some improvements as well. The '96 spec. 264mm brakes are useless (hence the upgrade in 1998 to the large 282mm disks) but I'm not sure if the UK cars ever came with the early spec. brakes? The suspension is definately a comprimise for the road but that shouldn't stop you having fun on track...it's still going to have plenty of roll but then that makes for a lot of fun managing the weight transition.

I love the attention to detail the Integra received, it's such a great car that had a lot of effort put into making it the best it could be. It feels purpose built where as the Clio does feel like a shopping car with a big engine. The end result in performance is similar though.

 

[andye30m3]

I would use coilover but that would mean changing classes in the sprinting I do,

If I bought a cup I could continue in the same class but really only want to change if it's worth while,

Also do people find 16' wheels better on track as I could feel the roll in the 50 profile tyres on the 15's, on the 180 degree corner at spa it felt like the rims were going to hit the tarmac to the point at which I eased off, although not that much as I seam to have blistered the yokohama's

 

[480bhp.com]

Can't see why people rave about the Trophy, for the road it's better than the normal 172/182 but on track it's no better, infact is anything the Trophy suffers with far too much roll as standard.

All the Trophy's got is recaro seats and better dampers and springs, but all of those are only any good on the road, to get the best out of any track car, the 1st thing to do is remove as much weight as possible, then comes the suspension and brakes. Standard Trophy suspension is crap on the track, to get more from it, you need to unpin the dampers (and refurb at this age) fit some stiffer springs and some adjustable rear dampers, that will see you another 1k out of pocket, your probably better off buying a 172 cup and fitting some good coilovers, and then get it set up properly.

I'd say the same driver in either a standard 172 cup or a Trophy, would see the cup come out on top, for lap times.

Chris

 

[ForceIndia]

All else being equal, the dc2 would be quicker.

 

[Pep]

DC2 is a MUCH better car. No doubt about it.

On the road my old 182 was more 'fun' as it was a lot rawer and on the edge. But the DC2 just has so much composure on the edge, grip is mental, and the LSD is stupidly good.
Straight line there may not be much in it, but on corners me in my DC2 against me in my old 182 would have been an easy win for the Integra.

Seating is awesome, noise is awesome, build quality is awesome, looks are dating a bit but different in a good way.

As said before, all UKDM's came with big brakes, plus cheaper insurance.
JDM 98 spec is the one to have, but go for a fair wack more than the UKDM's for a few small changes.

If you want any more info pm me.

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

Out of the three and even including the Trophy, I think a DC2 would make a better track car. More solid, faster, handle better, LSD, easily tuned and Recaro seats. Easy decision imo, my mate is chopping his STI impreza for one he liked it that much!

 

[Dan-t]

other way around uk spec cars go for allot more than jdm cars and there is a much larger choice of jdm cars this also means theres allot of dogs out there. if you arent a member already sign up to www.itr-dc2.com theyll have all the info you need.

For a track car id rather have the integra, they are a much stronger car and have a lsd as standard around the streets id rather have a 172 cup.

I have a 172 cup and my friend has a dc2 jdm integra type r, we both agree mine is more useable around the doors as you really have to screw the nuts off the integra to get it going even more so than the clio, but on a track the integra would win hands down, also there is a much larger tuning market for the integra and interchangeable parts throughout the model range. You can even upgrade using lagrer rover brakes, its amazing how tuneable they are.

Just avoid higher milleage cars they start to get worn out around 100,000 miles and start to burn quite a bit of oil, which normally means replacing piston rings and valve stem oil seals at the least, weve just finished a rebuild of my friends integra becasue of this.

 

[Tav]

I would use coilover but that would mean changing classes in the sprinting I do,

If I bought a cup I could continue in the same class but really only want to change if it's worth while,

Also do people find 16' wheels better on track as I could feel the roll in the 50 profile tyres on the 15's, on the 180 degree corner at spa it felt like the rims were going to hit the tarmac to the point at which I eased off, although not that much as I seam to have blistered the yokohama's

Just change the springs/dampers and don't use coilovers?

 

[16v_er]

DC2 is a MUCH better car. No doubt about it.

On the road my old 182 was more 'fun' as it was a lot rawer and on the edge. But the DC2 just has so much composure on the edge, grip is mental, and the LSD is stupidly good.
Straight line there may not be much in it, but on corners me in my DC2 against me in my old 182 would have been an easy win for the Integra.

Seating is awesome, noise is awesome, build quality is awesome, looks are dating a bit but different in a good way.

As said before, all UKDM's came with big brakes, plus cheaper insurance.
JDM 98 spec is the one to have, but go for a fair wack more than the UKDM's for a few small changes.

If you want any more info pm me.

nailed it on the head there mate....i have a 172 cup....and i miss my dc2 in everyway...noise, build, performance. clio is cheaper when you have mortgage tho

 

[.Ben.]

ITR's are getting a bit long in the tooth though, surely - Most on PH are on the wrong side of 100k miles and will invariably have been treated like $hit by some unsympathetic toerag...

Better built or not, most are double the age of the equivalent Clio and will have components that will be getting tired by now. It's a mechanical object after all.

Problem with old cars is that you will chase your tail trying to sort out the inevitable problems.

An analogy my dad used to say about old cars is that you are like the guys who repair and paint the Sydney harbour bridge - It takes them a year to undertake the task - and as soon as it's finished, they have to start at the beginning again.

IMO, a newer car with less miles is the way forward.

And for those who believe that Honda offer the last word in reliability - they don't. I've owned an S2000 and an UKDM EP3 and both suffered from problems. The S2K, for instance, had a problem with seizing suspension bushes (very common by all accounts on S2Ki.com and rectification work came to £1700 per corner!!) and oil surge on track. The EP3 had shockingly patchy build quality issues. Not things that I would have expected, given their reputation?

 

[gary87]

I had a DC2 and now I own a Ph2 172. Fair enough my 172 is completely standard but compared to a standard DC2 the difference is like night and day. LSD and Recaro's make B roads epic compared the Clio and vtec is brilliant. You could pick up a 96 spec JDM DC2 for under 5k with 60k on it and they have the shorter ratio box compared to the UKDM.

Gary

 

[Pep]

I see your point Nero, and I thought the same. But it simply isnt true when comparing a DC2 to a Clio. My 182 was a little over 4 years old when I sold it, had done 43k miles, looked after stupidly well by me and the previous owner, I spent a fortune keeping it tip top so it was a good car, had no problems etc, and it felt solid. It was a typical clio however, few rattles etc.

Then I got the DC2, twice the age, more than twice the miles.....but it is quiter and firmer inside, no rattles, nothing falling off. Standard exhaust is fine, I have replaced the rear bushes and a few arms on mine since having it, and a full service and cambelt. Feels like brand new compared to the clio. Gearbox and clutch are 100% spot on, miles better than the clio, original steering wheel is perfect unline a clio, seats are fine etc etc.

The wrong side of 100k miles it may be, but when they go on for well over 140k miles, after being driven hard all their life, i'm not worried at all. It just means mine, being in decent nick with loads of history will be more desireable.

On track, which the main thread is about, the DC2 will smoke the clio, LSD, better weight distribution, better seats, steering, gearbox. I loved my Clio to bits, and in some ways regret selling it. But it is the better car. Plus, when the Clio is 10 years old what value will it hold compared to the DC2.

 

[.Ben.]

...when the Clio is 10 years old what value will it hold compared to the DC2.

You make a very good point, given the current rate of depreciation!

Clio's will also inevitably reach a point where the value of the vehicle is less than the cost to perform a cambelt service!

How scary is that?! :dead:

 

[Pep]

Couldnt imagine that, a car worth less than the service haha.

Plus side of the Integra for me was servicing myself, with all my previous cars it has been straight down the line dealer/specialist for everything. The DC2 just had a full cambelt service at the cost of around 160 including labour from my mate and my help, love it!

 

[Ali]

Can't argue that the DC2 has held its value better but to say it's a MUCH better car is ludacris!

The DC2 is VERY marginally quicker than the RS.
The DC2 is HARDER to drive than the RS esp on track but ultimately "Slightly quicker" talking half a second around knockhill. 1:01:35 to 1:02 something.
The DC2 is dated now and finding a good one is becoming difficult.
The Build quality is not MUCH better
The Seating position and pedigree is superior but they also has it's down sides, it is and was a c**t to drive daily

I'd have the RS over the honda every day of the wk...The track doesn't justify enough if you are driving it to and from your work and having the off back road blast!

 

[Pep]

Can't argue that the DC2 has held its value better but to say it's a MUCH better car is ludacris!

The DC2 is VERY marginally quicker than the RS.
The DC2 is HARDER to drive than the RS esp on track but ultimately "Slightly quicker" talking half a second around knockhill. 1:01:35 to 1:02 something.
The DC2 is dated now and finding a good one is becoming difficult.
The Build quality is not MUCH better
The Seating position and pedigree is superior but they also has it's down sides, it is and was a c**t to drive daily

I'd have the RS over the honda every day of the wk...The track doesn't justify enough if you are driving it to and from your work and having the off back road blast!

Owned one?

For starters it is mainly a track car from what the OP states.
And it is much better, may not be a hell of a lot faster as they are in the same class, but will easily beat a clio with the same driver + conditions.

Plenty of decent ones about, just not on everyones doorstep.

Why harder to drive on track? A lot more controllable on the edge.

Build quality is leagues ahead, no rattles, nice and solid, no wear or other problems.

 

[gary87]

Can't argue that the DC2 has held its value better but to say it's a MUCH better car is ludacris!

The DC2 is VERY marginally quicker than the RS.
The DC2 is HARDER to drive than the RS esp on track but ultimately "Slightly quicker" talking half a second around knockhill. 1:01:35 to 1:02 something.
The DC2 is dated now and finding a good one is becoming difficult.
The Build quality is not MUCH better
The Seating position and pedigree is superior but they also has it's down sides, it is and was a c**t to drive daily

I'd have the RS over the honda every day of the wk...The track doesn't justify enough if you are driving it to and from your work and having the off back road blast!

The build quality in the Honda is far superior to a Clio. Even 13 years on my Integra felt better than my current 6 year old RS. The gearbox in the Integra is nicer and I had no problems with driving mine daily. Yes it may be a bit firm and the gearbox a bit short for motorway miles on the early models but an normal 172/182 wouldn't even be in the same league. As well as that parts especially second hand parts are a lot more readily available for the DC2. If you want a soft performance car by a Renault, if you want something a bit more raw and "out of the box" performance buy a DC2.

 

[16v_er]

Can't argue that the DC2 has held its value better but to say it's a MUCH better car is ludacris!

The DC2 is VERY marginally quicker than the RS.
The DC2 is HARDER to drive than the RS esp on track but ultimately "Slightly quicker" talking half a second around knockhill. 1:01:35 to 1:02 something.
The DC2 is dated now and finding a good one is becoming difficult.
The Build quality is not MUCH better
The Seating position and pedigree is superior but they also has it's down sides, it is and was a c**t to drive daily

I'd have the RS over the honda every day of the wk...The track doesn't justify enough if you are driving it to and from your work and having the off back road blast!

No sorry bud....build quality is MUCH better than rs! i had 3 clios and the dc2. Harder to drive on a track than an rs???? ehhh? no it isnt. As for dailty driver....i used mine every day for 2 years....no problems. I love my cup, but the dc2 is my fav.