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Please help with Engine Issue - 182 2004



J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Hi guys - I am new here.

I bought my 2004 Clio 182 a few weeks back. It is a 69k miles car with FRSH. I got it cheap with a duff alternator. Replaced alternator and got it going, happy days.

I drove the car for the first time properly a week after. I got about 3 miles then the aux belt failed and the engine cut with no drama. It would not start again after that. The aux belt was not off completely but damaged from the tensioner moving too close to it, and it has hanging half off the pulleys. I put the breakdown down to the aux belt fail.

Towed home. Replaced the aux belt with new one and fitted the tensioner a little more robustly this time.

BUT the car never started again. Spent 2 weeks trying all of the usual Clio stuff, but pretty sure it was not anything normal. Done all the normal things, checked immobiliser, new battery, new CAS and so on. No joy there.

So, here is what we know as of today:
1) ignition is firing, turned engine over with HT & plug out of the engine and earthed and all plugs are firing nicely. In addition timing gun is showing good pulse to plugs.
2) fuel system is working well. Rail pressure is good and removed fuel rail & injectors, turned over and they all spat fuel very nicely.

So! Engine ignition is firing and fuel is flowing. This leads me to think it can only be a valve timing issue. Here are my theories:
1) cambelt may have gone and cams are out of time, hence her not catching when turning over
2) I noticed that this engine seems to have a type of Variable Valve Timing, but don't know anything about it. I am wondering if there is a possiblity that the VVT system can get upset and put the timing permanently out of time as such that she won't start
3) Crank Angle Sensor, I guess this could cause timing issues. But I tried cleaning the OEM sensor, and then replacing with a new sensor. So it seems unlikely that the CAS is causing it.

Any ideas on the 3 theories above please?
Any idea what I should do next?
I am stuck now and not sure where to go.

Thanks very much.

Jon
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Could you give me an idea of what compression to look for please? I am guessing a working engine should be around 200Psi?
 
R

RS Charlie

  Clio 172, Escort RST
I would not get too held up about the figures ; different gauges (especially cheap ones!) will say different figures. I'd aim for less than a 15% variance between the cylinders.
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
OK - I guess that I am just checking that it has got SOME compression. Just waiting for our lovely UK weather to stop raining for 5 minutes.

Also today - checked that the engine was earthed properly. From head plug housing to battery was 0.5Ohms, so I suppose thats not too bad. Should ensure that the plugs are sparking when in the actual bores.
 
R

RS Charlie

  Clio 172, Escort RST
If you are local to Warwick I have a spark tester which may potentially remove the need to take off to inlet manifold to test for a spark :).
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Thanks for the offer Sir, sadly I am 90 mins away in Cambridge. With no car :(

I guess the next thing to check is cylinder compression tomorrow if we get a gap in the rain and then summarise.
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
OK guys. Compression check done.

good news: 0% error between cylinders

bad news: 0Psi on all cylinders... (with trusted tester)

Eek! Is that a cambelt gone? I can't believe I bought a car that did only 3 miles before the cambelt went.

Also, I've got the history for the car, and the cambelt was done only 6 months ago. Although it also says that they did the aux belt, and there is NO way that that aux belt was 6 months old, It was at least 5 years I'd say. All getting very dodgy.

Is the 182 a interference engine please? will I likely have valve damage?

I'll remove cam cover now and turn it over just to make sure this is the correct assessment.

Thanks :(

Jon
 
MicKPM

MicKPM

ClioSport Trader
  Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
it does sound very much like the belt has slipped the timing - Who did the belt change and do you have the receipt/invoice detailing the job?
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Ah - sorry slight change.

OK I couldn't figure out how to remove the cam cover. So got a torch and peeped in through the injector port so I could see the intake valves. They seem to be moving up and down quite happily. I think rules out cambelt problem?

If the valves are moving, then cams are moving, then belt is driving cams.

OK so to summarise - Valves are going up and down and so are pistons, but the engine doesn't run and the cyluinders are making zero compression with a working tester. I am assuming that the pistons are moving, but obviously I guess they have to be.

So - correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this mean that something major has occurred with the timing?

e.g.
Maybe a cam pulley has jumped a few belt teeth or maybe the VVT is doing something weird. I don't see why the vvt would have the scope to move cam timing enough as to loose all compression.

What are your thoughts on that please? Whats the next step?

Thanks
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
I guess I need a method of checking that the valves are moving correctly in time with the crank? Hmmm
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
If I now remove the cam covers with the engine in the car, do we think that I would be able to see the cam belt and cam pulleys enough to check that they are correctly in time?
 
Ol’ Tarby

Ol’ Tarby

ClioSport Moderator
  Clio 220 Trophy
I've removed the invoice pic, as the previous owner may not want their details posted on the the internet
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Ah - I'm glad you said that. I was half way to getting her out. I got stuck anyway, I can't figure out how she lifts out with gbox attached.

Two Deck - any idea how I go about checking the timing please? And what am I checking the timing of? We are past the point of checking ignition timing obviously, that doesn't matter any more as there is no compression. Please expand what you mean? I can't think how to check the timing of the cams to the crank without getting to the cambelt.

I tried to get a look at the cambelt, but for some reason on this car the engine is REALLY close to the OS chassis rail so you can't even really see down there. Let me know your thoughts please so I know whether to continue or not. Thanks

 
T

Two Deck

blimey your not hanging around!!! There is some special tooling you would need a pin for the crank and a plate to lock the cams (this is just for checking) but just to see if i can help on here at the end of the head, gearbox end are 2 black plastic caps pop them out and take a pic, stick it on here and i'll have a look, basically take a pic of the end of the cam shafts
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Understood Sir - I'm on it.

Yes well this car has been down for over 2 weeks now and I'm having to use my drift car for getting to work and it is driving me nut! Need clio working :)
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
hmm - those black caps are real slags. Do you just shove a screwdriver in and flick them out? It feels like its going to damage them
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Oh ok - will continue tomorrow as light has just about gone.
Don't think I have damaged the alloy rim, didn't go in very far before aborting.

What are we look for here by the way? The relation of one cam to the other cam?

Thanks
 
T

Two Deck

Yeah you will see where the plate would go in, and can hopefully work out from there if the cams are out of align, the pic attached will give you some idea
 

Attachments

  • Cam.jpeg
    Cam.jpeg
    164 KB · Views: 296
T

Two Deck

Not good your timing has jumped, imagine trying to put a plate through the slots in your cam shafts, reference it against the pic i attached yesterday, i can't remember every working on one that hasn't bent valves when this has happened so i would be taking the head off next.
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Dam dam dam. DAM!

OK breathe....... and exhale.....

OK lets plan this.

So one way or another, ignoring valves for the minute, I've got to re-do the cambelt, agreed? If so I think I should remove the engine. I don't think I'm going to be able to get to that cambelt area reliably with the engine in.

Do you agree? If so, how do you best remove the engine? With gbox or without? I am used to working on RWD cars where you just drop everything out the bottom all together, but this looks a little more complicated.

Thanks

Jon
 
T

Two Deck

The timing needs correcting yes, i'd be surprised if the valves haven't hit, You don't need to drop the engine to change the belt, if you are going to remove the engine i have only taken a couple out and i dropped them out the bottom, subframe off etc.
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Hmmm. Tough one.

I am worried about working in that cambelt area with my lack of skill. I would be so much more comfortable with lots of space to work with. Much harder for me to c**k things up that way.

I have read that special tools are required, which I can believe from having done the aux belt. I am happy that I will probably be able to weld up any tool that I need from scratch, but again I'll have no chance of doing that unless the engine is out, and I have lots of space to work in.
 
MicKPM

MicKPM

ClioSport Trader
  Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
The engine has no compression... the valves need replacing.

Remove the cylinder head in situ, leaving the bottom end and gearbox in the bay. Easy enough and a couple of hours work
 
MicKPM

MicKPM

ClioSport Trader
  Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
And you need the tools to be able to re-time this engine - Many have tried without and most have failed.
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Dang it.

Do we have a source for these kind of tools please? As yet not familiar with Renault suppliers.
 
J

Jontt

  Clio 182 2004
Well it looks like the base cause has been found. Cambelt looks fine, but the cambelt space is packed full of chewed up aux belt.

Looks like when the aux belt went a couple of weeks ago it found its way into the cambelt area and messed it all up. Cant see it very well in the photo.
<a href="" title="001 by Jon Terrell, on Flickr"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/342/19120757145_0f410f5af7_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="001"></a>
 
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