poorly 172 turbo :(

[scotty2hotty81]

Right i have been racking my brains over this! and stevie hasswells (sorry mate) i have carried out a low pressure turbo conversion to my 172, (old turbo trophy kit) and i was booked in to rs tuning to get the mapping sorted, so base map in place off i went monday morning, with a kind of sick feeling in my stomach that something was going to go wrong, sure enough it did, when i arrived it was put on the rollers and made 181bhp paul said it was not right and running very rich (i though this was the base map) made nice flames anyway so a faulty lambda was the cause and swopped with the post cat lambda, boost increased and a different map installed it just about made 203bhp again paul saying something was not right, after a couple of different maps a bit of tinkering it made 213.6bhp with a very bad flat spot between 3000-4000 rpm in 5th i am pretty sure paul said the knock sensor was picking up det and retarding the timing to try and compensate, he tried adjusting the map but said there was not enough timing to mess about with, so im back there this thurday for him to check the timing, can anyone shed any light on this? i have replaced the fubard lambda and ordered a new knock sensor as there only cheap.

so is it...............

a faulty knock sensor?
carbon build up on the pistons causing hot spots?
or the good old timing issue?
or something else?

sorry there is no graph i know this would help out more.

it has straight through 2.5" exhaust no cat
angel works ported inlets
and a forge intercooler so no restrictions!

cheers
Scott

 

[Adey.]

What power did it make on the old car? I thought the low boost conversion that ktec sold only made about 220?

 

[scotty2hotty81]

steve had 206bhp from the first mapping session, im pretty sure he squeezed more out of it before going low comp, its not so much the figures im after its why the car is detting, dont get me wrong we all like to chase big figures, if it stayed at 213bhp with the flat spot ironed out i would be really happy as the car is a different animalto drive! rs have done a clio cup that is on here i think with a similar spec bar the forge intercooler and it made 228bhp i wouldnt mind breaking the 230 barrier though

 

[Adey.]

Could be many things causing it, so it's only doing it when flat out in 5th?

 

[scotty2hotty81]

you can only really notice it in 4th and 5th i would imagine in the other gears it just powers past it, its just very laboured in 4th and 5th on the motorway its a struggle beause thats 70-80 mph, it creates a good power curve on the dyno other than 3000-4000rpm where it suffers a 20hp loss

 

[ND04]

steve had 206bhp from the first mapping session, im pretty sure he squeezed more out of it before going low comp, its not so much the figures im after its why the car is detting, dont get me wrong we all like to chase big figures, if it stayed at 213bhp with the flat spot ironed out i would be really happy as the car is a different animalto drive! rs have done a clio cup that is on here i think with a similar spec bar the forge intercooler and it made 228bhp i wouldnt mind breaking the 230 barrier though

That was mine that made 228 ive just had the new boost pipes from k-tec fitted today it feels much better to drive and more resposive which forge intercooler you got might change mine ive just got the one that k-tec supplied

 

[scotty2hotty81]

http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=&product=FMINT204UNI steve told me about the universal ones cant remember the measurements but mine and steves sits under the front crash bar (as yours does) but finishes flush with the bottom of the bumper its wider, deeper and the inlet and outlet is a bigger bore so you will need to mess around with pipe adapters as i had to, i was lucky and got a low milage second hand one of ebay for £80 delivered!

 

[ND04]

Thanks for the info mate.

 

[RSTuning]

I'm still sure it will be cam timing. It was actually detting, even with 2 degrees timing!

 

[Ricardos]

What psi boost did you make at those power figures squire?

 

[scotty2hotty81]

Sure hope so, other than that Paul it drives spot on, thanks for your efforts on Monday mate.

 

[scotty2hotty81]

What psi boost did you make at those power figures squire?

approx 8-9psi 0.6 bar it's a low pressure turbo set up

 

[Ricardos]

approx 8-9psi 0.6 bar it's a low pressure turbo set up

Cool, are you staying at that boost pressure then?

 

[scotty2hotty81]

Think I might be able to push 0.7 but I leave that to Paul at RS tuning, not much more as it's still standard internals and will need low comp pistons to run more power, it's no comparison tO standard!

 

[Ricardos]

The torque increase makes the difference are you mapping the std ECU?

 

[scotty2hotty81]

Yeah I know I think it was around 220ft/Ib yes on standard ecu.

 

[wrc172]

Thread revival. Didn't really want to start a new thread.

Can I just ask a question, someone should be able to answer.

If you were to turbo a clio, get all the mechanicals done, get it running etc - what's the cheapest option engine management wise?


My main question is - can you take a stock ECU, get the car to k-tec or similar and can you have a stock ECU mapped for a turbo application? Or does the stock ECU have zero ability to recognise boost?


Thanks guys.

 

[Dan519]

Thread revival. Didn't really want to start a new thread.

Can I just ask a question, someone should be able to answer.

If you were to turbo a clio, get all the mechanicals done, get it running etc - what's the cheapest option engine management wise?


My main question is - can you take a stock ECU, get the car to k-tec or similar and can you have a stock ECU mapped for a turbo application? Or does the stock ECU have zero ability to recognise boost?


Thanks guys.

it's been done on stock ECU with a lot of messing about, but it's generally sub-standard. Not worth considering IMO

 

[wrc172]

How is it done exactly? Unlocking the ECU to accept a different map sensor for example?

 

[Dan519]

you change the part of the bin file that is the sensor calibration scale. It's basically voltage against a pressure scale (but in hexadecimal code). Trouble is you start effecting other parts of the map, other than just the fuel and ignition tables, because everything is cross referenced to everything else. You never really know what effects everything else. Not seen one done in ages, but every time I saw a boosted clio on the stock ECU it would idle at over 2k when it felt like it.

Engine control is where the power is released, cutting corners is wasting your own time.

 

[wrc172]

Your recommendation for the cheapest basic way to control fuel & ignition on a sub 8 psi boosted clio dan?

 

[Dan519]

no cheap way round it that I'd recommend. I'd fit a GEN90 personally

 

[wrc172]

That was what I was worried about. This is only a cheap little project, and I don't want to put too much I to it.

even thought about an mf2 which is like a mappable 5th injector, bit pokey I know but just seeing how low cost I can do. That would be the fuel sorted, but then I've still got the ignition to worry about...

 

[cliokid182]

Im looking at going down the turbo route myself in the future, need to do abit more to the car first and then see where i am, but seein the price they sell for as a packaged car im half tempted to save alot of money buy buying a car already done and swapping the parts over from car to car and then just sell the other car with the standard parts back on, im in no rush at the moment to do this so will just wait for something cheap to come up

 

[Dan519]

That was what I was worried about. This is only a cheap little project, and I don't want to put too much I to it.

even thought about an mf2 which is like a mappable 5th injector, bit pokey I know but just seeing how low cost I can do. That would be the fuel sorted, but then I've still got the ignition to worry about...

you could look at a piggyback ECU, but they don't work too well with clios as the stock ECU learns around the changes.
Could sell you a Canems ECU, you're on cable throttle I assume so not too much else to change. Wire it in and keep the stock ECU running the dash

http://www.519automotive.co.uk/tuning-upgrades/canems-engine-management

 

[wrc172]

you could look at a piggyback ECU, but they don't work too well with clios as the stock ECU learns around the changes.
Could sell you a Canems ECU, you're on cable throttle I assume so not too much else to change. Wire it in and keep the stock ECU running the dash

http://www.519automotive.co.uk/tuning-upgrades/canems-engine-management

Interesting that. Is that a fuel & ignition computer?

The only other route I thought about it, all be it pikey - is run an mf2 mappable 5th injector, and then have the stock ECU mapped. I.e. the mf2 will look after fuel, and the remap can sort the ignition. Not sure if that's a good idea though.


Argh.

 

[wrc172]

Trouble is, the car cost me £400, the turbo setup cost £200. So I want to keep the costs down on the management. I'm not doing it for huge power, I'm doing it just to do it really - something to do in the workshop over the winter. Just need something to throw a bit more fuel in and something to back of the ignition a bit LOL

 

[Dan519]

yes it's a fully mappable ECU. I use them on older clios, and 205 GTI's generally, but there's no reason it can't work well on a ph1 172 at all. they've been used to run 172 engines in mk1 clios a few times now, the only shortcomings are not being able to run the 172 dash, or control Fly-by-wire throttle ( until the next generation ECU is released some time next year with full CANbus)

 

[Dan519]

Trouble is, the car cost me £400, the turbo setup cost £200. So I want to keep the costs down on the management. I'm not doing it for huge power, I'm doing it just to do it really - something to do in the workshop over the winter. Just need something to throw a bit more fuel in and something to back of the ignition a bit LOL

mapping it properly has a lot more to it than that. Retarding the ignition is not alway the right way to stop detonation, often advancing it is the right solution at certain load points

 

[wrc172]

I know I was just generalising lol

Need to get me thinking cap on for this one.