Potential pitfalls of a cheap 172 as a track car

[fat controller]

Myself and a friend are looking to to buy a track car between us. I want to start doing regular track days but don't want to do it in my normal road car as it eats consumable parts like brakes and tyres due to its weight.

After scouring the net and classifieds the 2 cars in the running are a 172 or e36 328. Now I know which track car will probably have been done to death and have searched through plenty of threads over the last few days.

Having owned one previously I know the clio will be a great choice but what I wanted help from you guys on is if we bought from the bargain basement, something like this http://autotrader.mobi/used-cars/ad...ing-18/0?PHPSESSID=q7gpd0rc0nseoj4v9oteid9v53 what's likely to wrong quickly.... what should we be budgeting to replace due failure early on in its life as a track toy. Can something in this price range be a reliable base for a track car OR is it a false economy looking at that end of the market?

 

[superbenji88]

Perhaps look at a Saxo or 106, they share common parts.

 

[fat controller]

Don't see how a 106 or saxo is cheaper or a better option than a 172?

 

[superbenji88]

If anything breaks you can use parts from either a saxo or 106. Properly more tasty second hand parts knocking around. Just might be worth looking into

 

[172Ben]

lets get a clio! At least i know how they come apart when we break it

 

[Adam G]

The answer you're probably looking for is along these lines...
Brakes, tyres and suspension are things to consider upgrading. As it's going to be driven hard anything could break/fall apart as it goes with the territory.

 

[fat controller]

lets get a clio! At least i know how they come apart when we break it

Lol with the amount of people that want in on this a scuderia could be on the cards!

The answer you're probably looking for is along these lines...
Brakes, tyres and suspension are things to consider upgrading. As it's going to be driven hard anything could break/fall apart as it goes with the territory.

Yeah had pretty much figured those would be the standard upgrades, its things that are likely to fail at that age as well, there are usually common things with certain models. So I would assume gear boxes? Bushes? Engines / gaskets?

 

[IceBerg182]

In my experience 106/saxo's are way cheaper for cambelt type jobs and exhaust systems (if your considering a 182), both things which may or may not be needed on a cheap track car. Having said that they do blow head gaskets which is somthing the 172s almost never do. Ive just bought a 182 for track use and it was quite a tidy one, 69k cambelt done, fsh ect, looked really clean and I paid 2.7 for it. Since buying it about a month ago here is the list of jobs I have had to do just to get it prepared for track use:

Thermostat £10
Plugs £37
All engine mounts £50
Trackrod Ends £25
Bottom Ball Joints £30
Exhaust £250
Tyres £300
Brake Pads all round £70
Remap £250
Service £60

I would imagine that unless you buy an absolute minter (expensive) that quite a few of these jobs will need doing to get it safe/reliable as a track car. So may be worth paying the extra for a minter in the first place? Saxo and pug bits are maybe 10-15% cheaper on average. Whereas 328 bits cost even more again and they are really old and crusty now so you will need to spend hundreds if not thousands before you get anywhere near the track. Basically, as long as you buy a 172/182 thats had new belts and doesnt need a defibrillator pulley you will be fine.

 

[fat controller]

In my experience 106/saxo's are way cheaper for cambelt type jobs and exhaust systems (if your considering a 182), both things which may or may not be needed on a cheap track car. Having said that they do blow head gaskets which is somthing the 172s almost never do. Ive just bought a 182 for track use and it was quite a tidy one, 69k cambelt done, fsh ect, looked really clean and I paid 2.7 for it. Since buying it about a month ago here is the list of jobs I have had to do just to get it prepared for track use:

Thermostat £10
Plugs £37
All engine mounts £50
Trackrod Ends £25
Bottom Ball Joints £30
Exhaust £250
Tyres £300
Brake Pads all round £70
Remap £250
Service £60

I would imagine that unless you buy an absolute minter (expensive) that quite a few of these jobs will need doing to get it safe/reliable as a track car. So may be worth paying the extra for a minter in the first place? Saxo and pug bits are maybe 10-15% cheaper on average. Whereas 328 bits cost even more again and they are really old and crusty now so you will need to spend hundreds if not thousands before you get anywhere near the track. Basically, as long as you buy a 172/182 thats had new belts and doesnt need a defibrillator pulley you will be fine.

Brilliant, thanks mate, that's exactly the kind of info I was after

 

[IceBerg182]

Ne bothar, I did spend quite a lot but would have been a lot more if i'd gone ahead with genuine bits. For example; the bottom ball joints are from a cheap kangoo wishbone, just had to drill the holes out with a 12mm drill to fit the bigger Clio RS bolts through. You have to buy the whole arms from Renault £160+ for the pair. The thermostat would have been about double the price from renault, just had to carefully file out the thermostat housing to make the cheap one fit. Engine mounts are from a Kangoo diesel £37 for the top one trade from GSF and £4 quid for the gearbox one. From renault would have been a ton just for one of them. Did buy things like oil from renault though £30 for the elf 5w40 trade. Also try and get a halfrauds trade card, got 2 bosch wiper blades for less than a tenner and well over half price on the big tool sets from there. Also did a gearbox oil change and halfords trade price was cheapest for 75w80. Good luck with finding a nice one.

 

[Chip-mk1]

172 is pretty much the ultimate daily and trackday in one go hatch IMHO, but if you dont want the daily driver side of it, ie arent bothered about the nice seats, reasonable economy, aircon, etc, then they arent so much in a class of their own anymore.

Still a good option, but at the very least I would buy a non aircon cup instead of the usual 172 to cut down on servicing costs.

 

[M@tt_182]

Personally I'd go for a 106/Saxo just because parts are cheaper and it's a very easy engine to work on. I agree that the H/G do tend to go however it's an easy fix and can be done with limited knowledge. A common engine swap for the 106 is a JP4 from a Citroen C2, 206 etc which have usually got fewer miles and have the revised rocker covers that don't leak.

 

[fat controller]

Thanks for the advice so far guys. The only road this car will see is to and from track. abs was the reason I had over looked a cup, my thoughts were that aircon can be removed if necessary from a normal 172

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thanks for the advice so far guys. The only road this car will see is to and from track. abs was the reason I had over looked a cup, my thoughts were that aircon can be removed if necessary from a normal 172

You want abs on a track car?

 

[172Ben]

You want abs on a track car?

No we don't!

172Cup is a good shout

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

I bought a 172 PH1 for £650, new front tyres £100 fitted, new front and rear discs pads and bearings £500 fitted (front pads were £160) job done. Already done Donington and Oulton Park and I'm back to Donington this weekend. I have a rear Whiteline arb to be fitted, have some braided brake lines to go on and then I am going to look to sort out a few other bits (wishbones tie rods etc). Car has so far been fantastic and I have had no real issues (airbag light has come on). TBHI can't really argue and if it goes tits up I have a company car for day to day use and I'm sure I could break the car and recoup my costs.

Best smile per mile purchase I have ever bought.

 

[Chip-mk1]

No we don't!

172Cup is a good shout

The 172 ABS is only active at very low speeds anyway as far as im aware, Ive only ever had issues with it on VERY tight bends.
It can be disabled by just pulling the fuse out anyway though, literally a 5 second job as its in the dash panel on the passenger side when you open the door.

 

[172Ben]

The 172 ABS is only active at very low speeds anyway as far as im aware, Ive only ever had issues with it on VERY tight bends.
It can be disabled by just pulling the fuse out anyway though, literally a 5 second job as its in the dash panel on the passenger side when you open the door.

Pulling the fuse is very pikey though. Also by doing that it doesn't alter the balance does it and make it very twitchy.

I think it was Burp who did it and the rear end kept locking and he kept spInning

 

[Chip-mk1]

Pulling the fuse is very pikey though. Also by doing that it doesn't alter the balance does it and make it very twitchy.

I think it was Burp who did it and the rear end kept locking and he kept spInning

I think you are confusing the brake bias valve on the rear beam with the ABS system, they are actually seperate things.

You can disconnect the rear bias adjuster and lock it off in one position if you wish to compensate for say taking all the weight out the back and having hotter pads on the front etc.


TBH for just general trackday use, the standard setup, ABS and all, actually works pretty well IME

 

[theduck]

IMO you should buy something you are happy working on and that parts are cheap on. 172s aren't exactly cheap for some jobs and need specialists. things like cambelts would be a concern for me if buying a cheap 172 so I would budget to have them changed amongst other bits.

 

[172Ben]

Having just read some threads about it, it's mentioned removing the fuse makes the system default to a 50/50 bias.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Having just read some threads about it, it's mentioned removing the fuse makes the system default to a 50/50 bias.

I dont think its even mechanically capable of a 50/50 bias under hard braking TBH, so that seems likely to be misinformation TBH

 

[welshname]

Removing the fuse on the 1*2's to remove ABS gives you 50/50 brake bias iirc the bias is controlled/determined by the rear abs sensors. Apparently you can disconnect a rear ABS sensor to disable it but retain the standard bias.

Personally I'd go for a 106/Saxo, the parts are cheaper, they are a cheaper car initially (well the VTS is, 106 GTi's fetch a lot more money), they handle just as well, if not better than the 1*2's, and power to weight wise once stripped and a few performance mods will easily give a clio a run for it's money. It costs less for the extra gains too.

Not sure on the truth in this but it appears/is said that the single plug 106's/saxo's respond slightly better to breather mods etc than the twin plug models. This may just be coincidence though.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Removing the fuse on the 1*2's to remove ABS gives you 50/50 brake bias. Apparently you can disconnect a rear ABS sensor to disable it but retain the standard bias.

50/50 by what metric?

50/50 pressure distribution in the lines in the system for example wont lead to 50/50 distribution of braking force as the front and rear brakes are so different.

Personally I'd go for a 106/Saxo, the parts are cheaper, they are a cheaper car initially (well the VTS is, 106 GTi's fetch a lot more money), they handle just as well, if not better than the 1*2's, and power to weight wise once stripped and a few performance mods will easily give a clio a run for it's money. It costs less for the extra gains too.

Saxo definately worth considering.

 

[welshname]

50/50 by what metric?

50/50 pressure distribution in the lines in the system for example wont lead to 50/50 distribution of braking force as the front and rear brakes are so different.

I see what you mean but I've no experience with it, it's just information which I've been told and is widely regarded as fact on here.

 

[sbridgey]

XR2?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I see what you mean but I've no experience with it, it's just information which I've been told and is widely regarded as fact on here.

TBH that desciption covers a lot of the stuff on here that my experience leads me not to believe, LOL

Gotta love the way people on forums will do something like refer to a brake system as "50/50 bias" without even knowing what they are actually referring to the bias of, lol

I pulled the ABS fuse on our 172 at bedford last weekend as we've got an intermittant ABS fault (need to replace the passenger side front sensor, it got disturbed when I was fitting new shocks on friday and like a lot of them the wire has gone brittle, and I didnt have one in stock) and even under very hard braking the rear never came close to locking at any point, in fact when braking really hard into the slow stuff I managed to lock a front wheel a couple of times instead.
That was on warmed up ds2500 front brakes, so not a definitive indication of what would happen on more normal pads, but it does seem to pont to the 50/50 as very innacrate in the context of braking force, as if it was actually 50% at the rear, the brakes would lock under even quite mild braking as there is so little weight back there and its only lessened by weight transfer under braking.

 

[welshname]

Sounds about right. A lot of things on here aren't 100% accurate. It's just a matter of who says it, depending on the person to say it, it then becomes fact.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sounds about right. A lot of things on here aren't 100% accurate. It's just a matter of who says it, depending on the person to say it, it then becomes fact.

I think there is an element of that on all forums not just here, and even more so when its stuff said in magazines.

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

70% of the time on forums people are right 100% of the time. FACT.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lol, that must be true, it even has "FACT" written after it, and that means its beyond dispute of course, lol

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

:approve:

 

[welshname]

Saxo is the answer to this thread. i.e the potential pitfall of having a 172 as a track car is getting beat by a VTS which cost half as much to build.

 

[alex-avfc]

As far as 'cheap' trackday cars go, I wouldn't look past a 106/Saxo. Such a huge market of used aftermarket parts, easier to work on, cheaper to fix and because half of them are tatty anyway you won't feel so bad ripping it apart.

 

[welshname]

As far as 'cheap' trackday cars go, I wouldn't look past a 106/Saxo. Such a huge market of used aftermarket parts, easier to work on, cheaper to fix and because half of them are tatty anyway you won't feel so bad ripping it apart.

Oh hai there club member

Agree with the above though, the clio's although a good car are the car for people who want 1 car that does both to a reasonable level. If you have the option of 2 cars, it doesn't come in to the equation.

 

[alex-avfc]

I renewed to comment in your ZS project thread! Lol

Btw if a gearbox goes on a 106/saxo - £100 for a second hand one or £300 for a rebuild
If an engine goes- £200 second hand for a low mileage, £400 will get you a JP4 which is a newish/revised 1.6 engine out of 307's, 1007's and the likes.

The most expensive thing you could face fixing on a 106/saxo is the rear axle, £500 all in for a refurbed item fitted, the lot.

Hard to look past.

 

[fat controller]

This might sound a bit daft but what's the issue with having abs on a track car?

 

[Adam G]

Heroes don't like ABS and that's ACTUALLY FACTUALLY FACT! I can vouch for Chip's ABS comments as I was with him at Bedford and couldn't tell any difference in his braking when he was chauffering me.

 

[ben lee]

i was after a track car and ended up buying a 106 rallye with a 1.6 16v engine parts are so cheap to replace compared to clios as easier to get hold of.


i suggested pulling the abs fuse in another thread and was shot down saying it would cause 50/50 braking instant death lmao.