recommended engine builder for engine timing

[t-man`]

basicly looking for someone to time my engine in. someone ideally within 50 miles of datford kent.

car has uprated valve springs and a set of piper cams. headgasket etc has been replaced.
i have tryed it doing it my self according to autodata info and the cambelt guide off of here. and the engine turns 90ish degrees and wont turn no more. spoke to piper and you can set the cams up on standard timing. i'm doing something wrong but have now run out of time to mess about with any more.

any info would be grateful or if your interested in timing it in for me pm me.

 

[Mr R.]

Have you got the Renault tools for locking the cams and crank?

 

[t-man`]

Have you got the Renault tools for locking the cams and crank?

the laser one which is about as good as a chocolate ashtray

 

[Mr R.]

PM sent.

 

[Fred@BTM]

you got the pulley tool, the crank pin and the "horseshoe"? i'm going to bet you've put the cams in upside down

 

[t-man`]

you got the pulley tool, the crank pin and the "horseshoe"? i'm going to bet you've put the cams in upside down

hi fred yes all the bits. can you confirm which way the cams should be? the timing belt was snapped when i orginally bought the car and my dealings with this engine

 

[lemonnobby]

when you look at the end should have big tops and little bottoms (the perfect women) if there the same as renault ones

 

[t-man`]

when you look at the end should have big tops and little bottoms (the perfect women) if there the same as renault ones

cheers mate. reprofile items so still have the renault method of timing. i'm gonna have another go tomorrow

 

[ditz]

i have all the kit,, and live in essex... im off work next week if you get really stuck.

 

[Fred@BTM]

the groove in the gearbox end of the cams is offset from centre, should be obvious, with piston 1 at TDC (box end) the grooves should be parallel and both grooves should be below the line where the rocker cover meets the head, i bet they're 180degrees out IE - the gooves are above the centre line

 

[t-man`]

see im 99% sure this is what i done. the only thing i can think of is one of the rockers has fallen off when the rocker cover was fitted. im going to check it over again tomorrow and start from the begining

 

[Andrew Cooke]

the groove in the gearbox end of the cams is offset from centre, should be obvious, with piston 1 at TDC (box end) the grooves should be parallel and both grooves should be below the line where the rocker cover meets the head, i bet they're 180degrees out IE - the gooves are above the centre line

Would that actually matter?

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah as the valve timing would be 180 degrees out, so valves open when piston at TDC = bad LOL

 

[Andrew Cooke]

yeah as the valve timing would be 180 degrees out, so valves open when piston at TDC = bad LOL

so turning the crank 360deg wouldn't fix it?

 

[t-man`]

no as the cams would still be out of time

 

[Fred@BTM]

cams turn at 1/2 the speed of the crank Andrew

 

[Dan@SJM]

so it'll still be the same as if it was at normal tdc then, as the cams being 180 out would be the sameas the crank having turned 360 from tdc when timed. Maybe one is 180 degrees out.

 

[Andrew Cooke]

cams turn at 1/2 the speed of the crank Andrew

so I'm right then

 

[Whiteley]

yeah as the valve timing would be 180 degrees out

so turning the crank 360deg wouldn't fix it?

cams turn at 1/2 the speed of the crank Andrew

so I'm right then

Was thinking the same ^

 

[Fred@BTM]

^no as the tool wouldn't fit

 

[Fred@BTM]

ah f**k it, too complicated to explain at this time of night, the cams are 180degrees out - done

 

[Andrew Cooke]

so it'll still be the same as if it was at normal tdc then, as the cams being 180 out would be the sameas the crank having turned 360 from tdc when timed. Maybe one is 180 degrees out.

that might do it, and the valves clash?

 

[Dan@SJM]

its the only reason why the tool would in theory fit, yet cause interference.

 

[Fred@BTM]

point being if the cams (both or 1) are "upside down" 180dgrees out but the crank is in the correct position it ain't going to turn over by hand

 

[Andrew Cooke]

point being if the cams (both or 1) are "upside down" 180dgrees out but the crank is in the correct position it ain't going to turn over by hand

next time you do a cam belt, once you've finished, before you refit the rubber bungs, spin the crank 360deg, pop the pin into the crank and check the cams. If you find the cams are upside down don't start the engine, just slacken everything off and set them right. Keep repeating this until you're 100% sure you don't have the cams 180deg out.

 

[jack_davey]

Have you fitted a new rocker cover/head? I've heard of people getting exhange heads then they've tried to fit their old cam cover on and found the camshafts wont turn due to mismatched bearing caps.
Anyway, I have the timing tools and I'm in Gatwick

 

[Fred@BTM]

next time you do a cam belt, once you've finished, before you refit the rubber bungs, spin the crank 360deg, pop the pin into the crank and check the cams. If you find the cams are upside down don't start the engine, just slacken everything off and set them right. Keep repeating this until you're 100% sure you don't have the cams 180deg out.

clever cloggs eh? it doesn't work like that, i see what you're getting at but you haven't turned the engine over 1 complete 4 stroke cycle

720degrees crank rotation = 360 degree cam rotation

so 360degree crank rotation = 180 degree cam rotation

 

[Andrew Cooke]

that might do it, and the valves clash?

I assembled a head tonight to see if it was possible to get the valves to clash under any circumstances (by clash I mean the inlet valves hit the exhaust valves).

They were nowhere near, so I thought so much for that theory. Then I remembered that the OP had uprated cams, and then I realised that I'd built the head with turbo cams. So that was a complete waste of time

Still, I did learn that the lifters can't be taken apart.

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Ok, so I swapped out the turbo cams and fitted the 172 cams, again, it's impossible to make the vales hit each other. I don't have any Piper cams, but I fitted some with more lift than standard, and I still can't make them hit.

 

[sideways danny]

Fixed

 

[t-man`]

Fixed

yep sorted simple mistake - rockers the wrong way round!! :S
that will be the last time i buy a car with i know nothing about with a snapped timing belt.
oh well after seeing danny use the proper tools as well to aline everything, im kinda glad it happened as there is no way you could retorque the pullys correctly using the laser tool. its just not strong enough.

 

[Fred@BTM]

how the f**k do you put the rockers in the wrong way???

 

[t-man`]

how the f**k do you put the rockers in the wrong way???

just look for the discoloured parts on them. i got the car with a snapped timing belt and it had bent all the valves and just simply pushed all the rockers off. never owned let alone rebuilt any renault before so just lack of knowledge really.

 

[sideways danny]

how the f**k do you put the rockers in the wrong way???

same way you put all the lifters upside down

LOL

Should all be sweet now

 

[Fred@BTM]

seriously??

 

[Andrew Cooke]

how the f**k do you put the rockers in the wrong way???

according to haynes - reassembly is the reverse of assembly

 

[Ant@BackyardRacing]

and here was me thinking the car would only start if it was set on the compression stroke :rofl:

 

[sideways danny]

yup. i was a little surprised, the exhaust cam was locking up so removed the cover. thought i'd see a rocker come off, which one had, then did a bit of a double take

 

[Ant@BackyardRacing]

yep sorted simple mistake - rockers the wrong way round!! :S
that will be the last time i buy a car with i know nothing about with a snapped timing belt.
oh well after seeing danny use the proper tools as well to aline everything, im kinda glad it happened as there is no way you could retorque the pullys correctly using the laser tool. its just not strong enough.

there not designed to hold the cams while you torque them, simply to check alignment....

 

[sideways danny]

there not designed to hold the cams while you torque them, simply to check alignment....

it would have bent by just trying to get the cams into alignment. Piper uprated springs