Just had my dci65 remapped, already had an intercooler fitted and the geeza said it should be running at around 90-100bhp. Only thing is he didn't have a rolling road there so i couldn't actually see a bhp print out, car feels alot nicer to drive but does it seem dodgy that a remapping specialist doesn't have a rolling road? He also said he could fit a "stage 3 remap" for an extra 100 pound to take it up to 112bhp, i would of liked to have it done but didn't have the extra money. I'm thinking about going back up at a later date and having it, or does it seem a scam? He could of easily charged me for a "stage 3" and gave me a standard remap and how would anyone know the difference without a bhp printout.
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Remap without a rolling road?
- Thread starter tonksie93
- Start date
Nimbus 197, Ph1 172
A lot of places that map don't have rolling roads. You can even get mobile mappers that come and 'live map' while you drive. Most places just buy the necessary equipment from a retailer, and act as a franchise as such.
Nimbus 197, Ph1 172
I don't know how the 65 will cope with it as I'm sure it has different injectors and turbo? A 47bhp increase sounds a bit optimistic to me.
Martin_172
ClioSport Club Member
you wont get over 100hp out a 65 without changing injectors.
Martin_172
ClioSport Club Member
well a "stage 3" wouldnt exsist as you would need a custom map for your new injectors. its a pointless mod changing the injectors. cheaper and less hastle to buy a 100!
80 and 100 are the same injectors realy just run higher pump pressure
THis stage xxx is a load of rubish just made to make things sound simple.
SOunds like he was just after £100 extra sure he might have an off the shelf map with more hp but if you enigne could handle it and you were aware of the risks he should have loaded it on.
I remap lots of cars without going near a rolling road.
Rolling roads are massively useful in extracting every last bhp from an N/A petrol car, but of pretty limited use for anything else really.
Diesels you tend to be smoke limited so can map upto that point with or without a rolling road, and petrol turbos you tend to be knock or EGT limited, so again its pretty easy to get very close to optimum without a rolling road.
I do use rolling roads on some of the petrol turbo cars I map though for just reasons of practicality, if you are talking about 400-500bhp per tonne it means to do it on the road and have time to map it properly your up in 4th/5th/6th gear to do so for the revs to raise slowly enough, and that means going around at double the national speed limit a lot.
I also feel that you cant properly map on a rolling road only, I quite often have rescue jobs where people have had a car mapped on the rollers but it just doesnt quite drive right at part throttle and low rpm etc, its very hard to feel what a car is doing on the rollers and also its a total waste of money to be spending the hours it takes to get the transient fuelling correct on a rolling road when it can be done better by feel when you drive the car around.
112bhp on a bog standard (ie not upgraded intercooler or injectors) 65dci I really dont think is possible TBH, not on the rollers I use anyway, but would certainly be interested in seeing it if it did happen.
Rolling roads are massively useful in extracting every last bhp from an N/A petrol car, but of pretty limited use for anything else really.
Diesels you tend to be smoke limited so can map upto that point with or without a rolling road, and petrol turbos you tend to be knock or EGT limited, so again its pretty easy to get very close to optimum without a rolling road.
I do use rolling roads on some of the petrol turbo cars I map though for just reasons of practicality, if you are talking about 400-500bhp per tonne it means to do it on the road and have time to map it properly your up in 4th/5th/6th gear to do so for the revs to raise slowly enough, and that means going around at double the national speed limit a lot.
I also feel that you cant properly map on a rolling road only, I quite often have rescue jobs where people have had a car mapped on the rollers but it just doesnt quite drive right at part throttle and low rpm etc, its very hard to feel what a car is doing on the rollers and also its a total waste of money to be spending the hours it takes to get the transient fuelling correct on a rolling road when it can be done better by feel when you drive the car around.
112bhp on a bog standard (ie not upgraded intercooler or injectors) 65dci I really dont think is possible TBH, not on the rollers I use anyway, but would certainly be interested in seeing it if it did happen.
PS
The 100 miles thing, it actually does take a little while for modern diesel maps to "come up" to full power after you flash them, as you are changing limit tables that the ECU then needs to learn again what it can do without breaching those limits.
Normally its a lot less than that though, but he's just covering his back by playing on the safe side I'd imagine.
The 100 miles thing, it actually does take a little while for modern diesel maps to "come up" to full power after you flash them, as you are changing limit tables that the ECU then needs to learn again what it can do without breaching those limits.
Normally its a lot less than that though, but he's just covering his back by playing on the safe side I'd imagine.
Martin_172
ClioSport Club Member
as above i was about 20/30 miles from memory as it gradually went from being slower than it was when it went in to being 30hp up 
Well i've done 40 miles on it already and it seems quite a bit faster. Would it be worth upgrading the injectors? Getting a new car isn't an option for me mainly because of the insurance haha. I know that when you have new injectors fitted you have to have them coded into the ECU, does that mean it would that reset the map i've just got? Then i would have to have a custom map after the ECU has been recoded?
WOn't loose the map but yes new injecotrs should be coded.
and yep after the new injecotr might need a remap as you'll be pumping about 15% extra fuel in so timing etc might need adjusting,
Depends how far you push it say 110 or so, A intercolled and 80 injectors mena you have for all intents and purpose a 80dci engine so see what the mappers get out of them.
onlt real difference is different wastegate (0.1bar more) and different gearbox
RSTuning
ClioSport Club Member
R35 GTR
I used to think like that too until i actually got my own dyno, you can literally steady state ALL load sites the car will drive in, make peak power at MBT (minimum best timing) without going near knock (in most cases). I find a lot of road mapped cars have FAR too much advance, some can be 5 degrees or more away from MBT. It's easier to finish some cars off on the road for sure but mapping flat out is stupid, dangerous and illegal!
Slightly different with the diesel stuff but there's so much BS talked by many mobile mappers who dont have a clue what they are flashing to the ECU as they are just buying cheap files from generally un-reliable sources.
A non intercoolered 65 will do about 95hp with a fair amount of black stuff.
As for the comment regarding companies live mapping the stock ecu while you drive about through the diagnostic port...... It's not possible on most vehicles.
Its the transients that I tend to prefer doing on the road, I agree that each individual cell if you hold it on the dyno you can optimise but only if the customer is prepared to pay for the expense of the rollers to get to each cell in the first place of course.
Most maps Ive seen from most rolling roads dont pay anywhere enough attention to the normal road driing IMHO
Agreed, 160mph while trying to map a car isnt really ideal, its kind of fun to begin with but after a while doing it you start to think more about the potential consequences.
Sadly in a price orientated market these people will still get business off a lot of people in preferance to a decent map for more money as the consumer doesnt know the difference and like you say in lots of cases neither does the installer!
Agreed, most ODB protocols require the ecu to not be running the car while its updating.
So much smoke and mirrors and bulls**t in the industry though with people pretending they are "live" changing stuff that they are not!
RSTuning
ClioSport Club Member
R35 GTR
Like you say most people dont want to pay the premium so the dyno is used for medium to full load and then the light load done on the road leaning on the lambda a little more that you would usually like.
I have seen so many "tuners" come and go in the OBD market it's funny. They get sucked in by some of the big con men that are good at marketing and then realise along with the customers that the tuned files are crap! Some invest thousands for locked slave kit and are tied to the biggest a$$holes of the industry. Shame they dont know how google works
I have seen so many "tuners" come and go in the OBD market it's funny. They get sucked in by some of the big con men that are good at marketing and then realise along with the customers that the tuned files are crap! Some invest thousands for locked slave kit and are tied to the biggest a$$holes of the industry. Shame they dont know how google works
I meant googling the master
As did I!
Just cause some installers **** off a particular master and say their files to blame wont always mean thats the case, it might just mean those installers were crap and did the usual thing that someone installing a file that knows nothing about it does and blame the file itself if something goes wrong, when really maybe it was a sticking injector or a MAF out of tolerance or whatever, and the file is perfectly valid but because its now working the car harder its showing up some other fault.
Its not uncommon for an installer (or end customer when you are remapping directly on a customers car) to say "it must be the file because it didnt do XYZ beforehand" without realising that actually the car had a fault but it just wasnt so noticeable beforehand.
Most obvious example being when you legimately wind the boost up slightly and the turbo just dies instantly, its not because you have broken the turbo, its because the turbo was already knackered but just not enough to show until the boost was wound up to a level that a good condition turbo would be fine with.
I installed a set of chips and injectors for a guy once on a calibra turbo (wasnt a paid job, was just a favour for a friend) and as soon as we had done so his car wouldnt run right, lost power, wouldnt idle etc.
First place he pointed the finger was at the chips, the reality was his loom was corroded and so when it had been moved to remove the injectors it had caused a break in it.
I found the problem fairly quickly as im used to those engines, but lots of people would have just carried on blaming the chip or the injectors or the person who fitted them, rather than realising it was a problem they already had within their loom and that at some point very soon it would have broken down anyway even without being moved about as it had gone so brittle with corrosion that just the rocking of the engine would have finished it off soon enough!
Yeah, I dont think people realise what a paper weight they are actually ending up with if they buy a slave device thats locked to a master that turns out to be no good!
As always though, people who dont know what they are doing go with the cheapest setup available or the one that has the biggest profit in it per file cause the files themselves are cheap.
Then once you are in that situation you cant even choose to pay more for a better file even if you want to, cause your slave is NO use with any other master and you have to go and buy another one for thousands of pounds again!
As always though, people who dont know what they are doing go with the cheapest setup available or the one that has the biggest profit in it per file cause the files themselves are cheap.
Then once you are in that situation you cant even choose to pay more for a better file even if you want to, cause your slave is NO use with any other master and you have to go and buy another one for thousands of pounds again!
It shouldnt look like a new member of the red arrows anyway, so dont think when we mention smoke we mean that sort of thing.
But if someone is following you and you for example come off a roundabout in 2nd at 2000rpm and then floor it, I would expect to see a small amount of smoke then after remapping.
"no smoke no poke" as they say, lol
But if someone is following you and you for example come off a roundabout in 2nd at 2000rpm and then floor it, I would expect to see a small amount of smoke then after remapping.
"no smoke no poke" as they say, lol
Well i already am impressed by the speed of it but it would be nice to get it that tiny bit quicker. Getting a new car isn't really an option for me mainly because of the insurance. The only other upgrades i know of is to upgrade the injectors and change the turbo, i'm not to sure on how i would go about the turbo but i would like to do the injectors as it don't seem like it would be that hard.
Bigger injecotrs beyond 80 are more difficult to do since there arn't any hence why most people just max them out with a big turbo vs bigger injecotrs which the standard turbo could make the same power with.
I would have thought a mod like this would have put the inssurance higher than a standard bigger car anyway?!
All but impossible for the insurers to know, so most people simply dont inform them.
The only way they are ever going to find out realistically is if they physically remove the ecu from the car and post it off to the manufacturer to find out if the map has been altered.
And then of course before a court would let them not pay out on the insurance it would need to feel that you had been aware of the modification when you signed the declaration saying that to the best of your knowledge the vehicle was standard.
That doesnt make it right of course, but thats the reality of the situation.
I only use tuners with rolling roads. The first run pre map always gives away any problems and makes sure the car is in the best of health before mapping.
A rolling road is just a tool, if you cant spot faults without a rolling road you're probably not very good as a mapper anyway TBH.
Chris205
ClioSport Club Member
Many Things
I've known people crash and have died due to mapping on the road, its pretty irresponsible. Anyhow I'm not going to preach I'm sure you know the risks. As for the DCi, that stage 3 map sounds like a load of crap, get the turbo, injectors and with the intercooler then get it mapped properly, i.e custom mapping
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