RS2 inlet

[Laine_16v]

For the purpose of what you are arguing i have made a quick overlay of the graphs maybe to help you pull the cotton away from your eyes.

Your very mildy tuned engine on stock inlet vs stock RS2. One can argue they arent the same rollers on the same day, and this is of course true, but youd like to hope they are at least half way accurate, both of them being DD rollers is a good start.

Also comparing the two graphs it clearly shows I make alot more low-down torque

Could you please show me where this low down torque is, i can't seem to find it.

as well as making high-end torque

Again really? It does exactly what i first said it did when you slated me for not driving one, it holds the torque for an extra 500rpm over stock...

The only downside is that i've lost a bit of mid-range torque for all of 2,000rpm

A "bit"? You've lost 25ft/lb's for nigh on 2000rpm, how can that in any way shape or form be considered a performance enhancement? As far as the argument of "well its obviously not going to be as good as ITB's" which i can honestly understand, but its not even performing over stock inlet...

I look forward to your reply, because i expect because i havent driven one i have gotten it all wrong.

 

[Dean.]

Ive driven (owned) one and unfortunately have to agree ^^

 

[mr.pink87]

If you compare the standard graph and the RS2 graphs, you can see a good gain in low down torque, about 145 lbft at 2.5krpm staying nearly constant until 6.5krpm (standard about 125@2.5krpm, peaking in about 150 @5krpm and then dropping to 130 @6.5krpm). I would not take the second graph as a reference as it seems to have a bit optimistic figures for the modifications stated. And now tell my, why driveability is better when you have a really short peak of torque @ let´s say 5krpm against a bit less torque (10lbft) for a bandwidth of nearly the full rev range!? Don´t know why there is so much hate in here, it is our money we spend on these things, if you know it better then do it your way even if this results in a properly damaged engine. There are reasons why these kinds of inlet setups with a single tb are quite common on race cars. Maybe the RS2 is a compromise but from my point of view it is a far better compromise than standard inlets and retains the oem character of the car against an itb setup.

 

[Sir_Dave]

i look forward to your reply, because i expect because i havent driven one i have gotten it all wrong.

Im sorry, but despite the fact ure an inbred cornishmen like me i cant take you seriously.

I suppose a better idea would have been to build a 200bhp + monster on 421's & itbs's, but alas, perhaps those who buy the RS2 want a reliable improvement in power...

Go off & enjoy ure itb's Laine. Oh wait, u cant, it blew up.

 

[Laine_16v]

Im sorry, but despite the fact ure an inbred cornishmen like me i cant take you seriously.

I suppose a better idea would have been to build a 200bhp + monster on 421's & itbs's, but alas, perhaps those who buy the RS2 want a reliable improvement in power...

Go off & enjoy ure itb's Laine. Oh wait, u cant, it blew up.

Cool bro. This isnt about my engine though. Kudos for trolling though.

I spotted the error of my ways and want a complete standard 172 cup to enjoy now

 

[Sir_Dave]

Cool bro. This isnt about my engine though. Kudos for trolling though.

Theres only one Cornish troll in here though, & its the one with no hands on experience of the RS2.

 

[maupineda]

by looking at the graphs above, member Laine_16v has a poinit, again, just by going with the graphs.

Now, those with the RS2, have you tested against mildly modded clios to confirm the extra performance felt is not just placebo? I mean, will your cars pull away noticeable from a non RS2'd?

I have cams, and I would sware on god my car was much faster than before and had the wrong idea I would leave any other clio anytime, then I raced a stock car and to my surprise we were neck to neck in 1st gear, by the end of 2nd gear I was pulling away by just the first half of the car, then in 3rd and 4th I managed to create a gap of just two cars in between, and I have lots of money in it (but not RS2 money). I am very interested in this and not trying to fuel hate, but I was about to take the cash out of my pocket but need to be first I don't end up with a car that in real drive is actually slower and would pull better for 500 rpms before the limiter.

 

[Dean.]

Get itb's

 

[Silent_Scone]

cams and itb's don't blow F4Rs up. These things take 250bhp with stock internals, so a harsher cam profile and a bit of extra air drawn in the front isn't going to make a massive difference. Of course any increase in power is going to decrease engine life by a small %..

Laine has had past experience in locking Renault engines up forever if I recall The man's just unlucky

Besides the sodding development mastermind behind the whole thing has told you how it is...so stop comparing the RS2, because they're not nearly the same

 

[Sir_Dave]

Get itb's

Thats just like me telling you to 'get an M3'.

Yup, unhelpful.

 

[Kam.]

really you cannot get a good argument comparing two different rolling road graphs from two different places and then overlaying them. Rolling roads are dubious at best when results are compared like that. With the design being so similar to an ITB kit with airbox i'd be surprised if there were no gains, but hey thats never stopped loads of people fitting the maxogen and simota etc lol

 

[Nick172Cup]

Laine has done a fantastic job of overlaying two graphs, one result being in paint! lol Inevitably he's put the paint result line in for the RS-2 which is incorrect... Both RS-2 power/torque lines should be higher than that, it may seem like i'm clutching at straws with that but if your going to try and prove someone wrong do it properly! lol

As people have said, this product shouldn't be related to ITB's however i'm not saying there wrong as with the RS-2 its always been a compromise but the fact that there both inlet modifications they will always be compared between each other.

As Mr.Pink has pointed out, for me a longer/better duration IMO is more benefitial for what I want rather than having an earlier peak and then just revving the engine for the sake of it. The great thing from the RS-2 is that it changes the power delivery/characteristics so it feels like a driving a different car and the harder/more rpm you drive the car, the more powerful it gets.

Maupineda - I've not personally had a run against a modified standard inlet manfold car, tbh there is lots of variables like cars weights etc that play there part in the result of which car is quicker. I'd like to do a comparsion though to settle things once and for all.

Problem with everything is that people are chasing figures to prove to themselves that its worth the money, in the REAL world you dont go drag racing everyone everywhere where your going to use every ounce of bhp you have in your car. As always with n/a tuning there isnt a great return for money spent, but in my mind if the car feels quicker to drive and makes driving more pleasurable then that's when the moneys worth it or not.

This is what leads me on to how much money you'll loose over various other substancial modifications.

RS-2 -

- £1700inc Mapping and Fitting.
- £500 to remove and put back to complete standard setup. (not stating figures just guessing)
+ Sell it on for £1000 upwards.

Toal loss of £1200.

Cheaper ITB kit - Based on TDF's kit.

- £2699inc Fitting and Mapping.
- ??? to put back to standard but owner will have to sort out cut engine loom.
+ £1500 to sell on.

Total loss of £1200 loss before even counting in putting it back to standard.

On top of this I hear you need to rebalance the ITB's every so often, so extra servicing in needed whereas other forms of modifications are fit and forget.

Aftermarket Camshafts - Based on Catcam 428's from K-Tec Racing.

- £594 for camshafts.
- £500 for fitting and new cambelt/aux kit.
- £300+ for calibration.
- £500 to remove and re-do cambelt/aux kit.
+ £300 to sell on.

Total loss of £1594.

IMO your not going to feel the difference from the minimal extra torque/power from what people say and get from Camshafts/ITBS in comparison, however with the RS-2 and the way it was designed you end up loosing less money than what you do with the other large alternatives modificationwise in the long run. Which for all the tightarses on this forum should really think about, seeing as most cars are built on here and then broken within 6 months.

Nick

 

[Budgie]

Peak power figures are just pub talk.

How it drives and how the kit is in effect plug and play (bar mapping) is what makes it a decent product, imo.

 

[Silent_Scone]

When your cars up and running Nick come to the next TDF RR day and compare then..

Peak power figures are just pub talk.

How it drives and how the kit is in effect plug and play (bar mapping) is what makes it a decent product, imo.

What you're saying is basically the only part of the argument that holds strength.. the drive you get from throttle bodies is what sets these two kits apart... or at least that's the way it would seem!

 

[Glos182]

My mate drove my car a while ago, back from Birmingham, he said it was alright, could see the fun side of it, said it was more planted on the motorway than his. He then takes it out for a spin after i got the RS2 fitted, went on a little 7mile round trip, we pull up at the work gates, and he turns to me and said, "I want one!!" with a big smile on his face. He couldn't get over the difference in the power delivery. Which is basically what Nick172cup is saying.

So i'm really not sure why there is such a big debate between ITB's and RS2. I think everyone knows ITB's are better, but they cost a lot more imo (for someone that can't do work themselves) or are some of you saying that it's just a placebo affect because the car now has uprated engine mounts, and a different map so of course it would feel different in power delivery?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I have driven Nicks car in anger I can honestly say that the RS2 is superb,TBH it felt like ITB's,and I had to actually ask him what he had under the bonnet!!
I cannot compare it with our car as they are so different in every aspect,but I was impressed and told JMS so.

 

[T3gav]

The RS2 IS a comprised product, if you look at the packaging in the car etc it has a serious battle on it's hands to produce any significant output increase due to the massively shortened runner lengths and potentiality lower gas speed; especially over ITBs. You would be foolish to make a direct comparison between the two especially as it is approaching half the price of a similar specced ITB package fully fitted, mapped & accessories such as the engine mounts.

The average results from the group buy for instance range for 181bhp to 191bhp, with the same linear torque character on all. There is a certain amount we can do to improve these numbers but sometimes that is simply the nature of such a mass produced car.

Shorter runner lengths than standard? Can you clear up the lining up issue, I can't believe you've designed an excellent product with CAD/CAM etc and 4 bolt holes make the tb sit on squiffy lol.

 

[RSTuning]

Just literally mapped an RS2 car, 160lbft and 188hp with a dyno cell temp of 30 degrees, holds 150lb for quite some time!

 

[Kam.]

Just literally mapped an RS2 car, 160lbft and 188hp with a dyno cell temp of 30 degrees, holds 150lb for quite some time!

Did you measure what it was running before or did it arrive already fitted? Any other mods?

 

[aucky]

^ Kam,
People turn up to RST with the manifold fitted, running on the standard map. It will run on it quite happily.

 

[Kam.]

you never know. Might have put this topic to bed ya see

 

[Tom@JMS]

There is a lot of b****cks in here, and a lot that holds sense.

Dean we never finished and thus never had the chance to finish diagnosing the issue with your car as you decided to move on; on that basis all you ever had was the following:

I'm not surprised your user experience was poor! I can only apologise for not getting the service you received 100% spot on.

Laine, you are making a valid point but going about it the wrong way.

With regard to the throttle lineup; yes it can be misaligned as the carbon is formed with a flange on it that I then put holes in to mount the throttle. The carbon is 7 ply so in other words has the stiffness to support the throttle without needing any metal mounting parts. The holes I cut are slightly enlarged to allow me to position the throttle directly over the inlet, however via that same basis I can also get it misaligned.

Tony, thanks for the neutral input.

I think it is very very foolish to make direct comparisons between ITBs/stock manifold tuned car and an RS2 etc etc, the only comparison that should matter is between stock, and then with an RS2 as that is what the product is designed for!

If you have spent £1000+ already carrying out the basic tuning work on a stock engine then you should examine the RS2 graphs and determine what is likely to happen to your cars performance as a result. This is not painting by numbers where you simply tot up the performance of what each product can provide!

Nicks 172, stock & RS2 on the same RR.

182, non stock (map & inlets) & then with an RS2, same RR.

The same 182 with RS2 @ RST, with a 'normal' stock result from a 182 selected from Paul from his database:

Obviously you get variations in output that is to be expected from a mass produced engine, some as low as 182-183, others producing over 192; all of them if working correctly provide the same linear torque.

And that is all I have to add effectively.

If you guys wish to argue until the cars come home about this and that then be my guest, however Paul & Ourselves would not be selling, fitting and calibrating the product if we did not believe that it represented real value for money, and a real performance increase.

 

[mr.pink87]

This is CS Tom, haters gonna hate! Don´t get upset by them and finish my inlet!

 

[Tony Hunter]

I would even forget power gain,it drives much better.

 

[Sir_Dave]

I would even forget power gain,it drives much better.

I think you've got it all wrong Tony.

This is ClioSport, people are only interested in impressing the crowd, not actually enjoying the car for themselves.

According to 90% of people on here, my track car is pointless as it doesnt have coilovers or a weld in cage. I remind myself of this as i overtake them on the outside of a bend with my eyes closed, whilst searching the forum for cheap bottles of PAS fluid.

For me, (& no doubt the ones that are also backing up the RS2), an improvement is something that betters the feel & drive of the car for oneself. Whilst some huge numbers are nice, the change in character of the car & considerable enhancement in driveability are perhaps more important than having 5 million extra bhp.

In addition, for someone that uses the car as a daily, & subsequently wants some decent mpg, again, the RS2 offers a great compromise.

 

[Tony Hunter]

I think you've got it all wrong Tony.

This is ClioSport, people are only interested in impressing the crowd, not actually enjoying the car for themselves.

According to 90% of people on here, my track car is pointless as it doesnt have coilovers or a weld in cage. I remind myself of this as i overtake them on the outside of a bend with my eyes closed, whilst searching the forum for cheap bottles of PAS fluid.

For me, (& no doubt the ones that are also backing up the RS2), an improvement is something that betters the feel & drive of the car for oneself. Whilst some huge numbers are nice, the change in character of the car & considerable enhancement in driveability are perhaps more important than having 5 million extra bhp.

In addition, for someone that uses the car as a daily, & subsequently wants some decent mpg, again, the RS2 offers a great compromise.

Isn't that what I said.

 

[Chris205]

Isn't that what I said.

I think Dave just wanted to talk about passing people in his trophy lol

I'm ready to take those Sachs off your hands when you fall into the coilover trap Dave I've managed to get some standard trophy rear shocks as theyre better than standard

 

[Tony Hunter]

He can only do it with his eyes shut(self admittance)

 

[Silent_Scone]

According to 90% of people on here, my track car is pointless as it doesnt have coilovers or a weld in cage. I remind myself of this as i overtake them on the outside of a bend with my eyes closed, whilst searching the forum for cheap bottles of PAS fluid.

LOL

 

[yeecup]

just scanning through some posts on here from people with them fitted, ie nick172cup, who gained 10bhp and some torque, for £1700. im sorry, but why bother? "it feels so much nicer to drive" is this trying to justify to yourself youve just spent £1700 on a few ponies and a bit of torque? the kit looks good, rather let down by the piper x induction kit at the end of it imho, and for the money i just dont get it for the tiny gains. what makes me laugh is people on this forum who slate stuff like the itg maxogen cause of the price, and yet get a woody over the rs2 because of the hype that has been built up on this forum. from what iv heard not just on here but on the trophy forum the initial thoughts after having the rs2 fitted arent all that. if u want proper gains either buy a different car or get the clio supercharged or at the very least throttle bodies. in fact id like to wager a 172 with exhaust, maxogen, matched inlets and a proper remap would get the same gains as a rs2 would on a like for like car.

 

[Nick172Cup]

just scanning through some posts on here from people with them fitted, ie nick172cup, who gained 10bhp and some torque, for £1700. im sorry, but why bother? "it feels so much nicer to drive" is this trying to justify to yourself youve just spent £1700 on a few ponies and a bit of torque? the kit looks good, rather let down by the piper x induction kit at the end of it imho, and for the money i just dont get it for the tiny gains. what makes me laugh is people on this forum who slate stuff like the itg maxogen cause of the price, and yet get a woody over the rs2 because of the hype that has been built up on this forum. from what iv heard not just on here but on the trophy forum the initial thoughts after having the rs2 fitted arent all that. if u want proper gains either buy a different car or get the clio supercharged or at the very least throttle bodies. in fact id like to wager a 172 with exhaust, maxogen, matched inlets and a proper remap would get the same gains as a rs2 would on a like for like car.

Lol! I love CS!

 

[oliver.james]

The way I understand it (and my expectations of the RS2) is that it's more about the drivability and the difference in power delivery.

The comments coming from the first completed group buy customers sound very promising.

 

[Budgie]

just scanning through some posts on here from people with them fitted, ie nick172cup, who gained 10bhp and some torque, for £1700. im sorry, but why bother? "it feels so much nicer to drive" is this trying to justify to yourself youve just spent £1700 on a few ponies and a bit of torque? the kit looks good, rather let down by the piper x induction kit at the end of it imho, and for the money i just dont get it for the tiny gains. what makes me laugh is people on this forum who slate stuff like the itg maxogen cause of the price, and yet get a woody over the rs2 because of the hype that has been built up on this forum. from what iv heard not just on here but on the trophy forum the initial thoughts after having the rs2 fitted arent all that. if u want proper gains either buy a different car or get the clio supercharged or at the very least throttle bodies. in fact id like to wager a 172 with exhaust, maxogen, matched inlets and a proper remap would get the same gains as a rs2 would on a like for like car.

PMSL. Nick had all of those things on his cup before it was RS2'd. Graphs on here show the difference.

Have you any experience driving/passengering in an ITB'd 1*2, RS2'd 1*2 or one with exhaust, remap and oh so special Maxogen? Just wondering..

 

[Silent_Scone]

"I don't see the point even though I haven't experienced the point so my point is invalid is my point"

That's what I just read ^

 

[Jonny1*2]

just scanning through some posts on here from people with them fitted, ie nick172cup, who gained 10bhp and some torque, for £1700. im sorry, but why bother? "it feels so much nicer to drive" is this trying to justify to yourself youve just spent £1700 on a few ponies and a bit of torque? the kit looks good, rather let down by the piper x induction kit at the end of it imho, and for the money i just dont get it for the tiny gains. what makes me laugh is people on this forum who slate stuff like the itg maxogen cause of the price, and yet get a woody over the rs2 because of the hype that has been built up on this forum. from what iv heard not just on here but on the trophy forum the initial thoughts after having the rs2 fitted arent all that. if u want proper gains either buy a different car or get the clio supercharged or at the very least throttle bodies. in fact id like to wager a 172 with exhaust, maxogen, matched inlets and a proper remap would get the same gains as a rs2 would on a like for like car.

Are you looking at the same graph :S Stock 172's tend to get around 160ish standard. Looking at Nicks graph he was pulling high 160s before inlets, now it's peaking at 195. You need to revisit GCSE maths matey

 

[Cup_Phil]

God there are some bell-ends on this forum

Spend £2,500 on throttle bodies and get 197bhp - amazing, awesome, I want it
Spend £1,200 on RS2 and get 195bhp - what's the point, it's s**t, the powers wrong, my hand sketched graph proves everything

LOL

 

[Sir_Dave]

from what iv heard not just on here but on the trophy forum the initial thoughts after having the rs2 fitted arent all that.

Can you point me in the direction of said thread? Being a Trophy owner, & one of the more active members of the forum, i cannot remember such comments. Unless of course, the comments were in some secret detailing section that they have banned me from viewing.

I am the devil afterall. Trophy modification is sacrilege iirc.

 

[-J-]

At the end of the day I cant comment on either set up ITB (In a Clio) or RS2 at the moment as I have driven neither (Yet)

I personally placed my Cash on the RS2 as the major factors me were -

1. The ability to change back to Standard easily (No ECU changes / loom cuts etc)

2. Its a daily driver used 365 days a year (My only experience of ITBs was an old XE power Nova and Cold Starts were a tw*t)

3. Cost RS2 is a fair wedge cheaper (more so on the group buy) than ITB's and although there are some power delivery differences, I simply couldn't warranty the extra costs for what is (IMO) a minimal difference in power and torque.

4. I was very impressed with the process Tom / James went through to develop the RS2.

At the end of the day people choose to spend THEIR money (Rightly or wrongly) how they choose, hell I blew more than the RS2 is costing me in 'spending Money' in Ibiza when i was younger, for the amount that week cost me I could probably have spent 2 weeks in a 5 star resort in the Caribbean somewhere, but it was my money and my choice!

All in all we have different views on everything, no one person is right or wrong, it all comes down to many deciding factors, taste, budget etc and the people who are saying you shouldn't buy and RS2 you should do XYZ are clearly voicing their opinions albeit I feel in the wrong way which I read more as a 'personal attack' on JMS and the product they sell.

Again those saying you should charge / turbo etc etc again i have no experience of these set ups in Clio's (Although I would love a blast in one) other than what i read on the forum, which seem to be for the majority to be hideously unreliable (Bar maybe 1 or 2 i have read about) and / or end up being sold soon after the conversions are complete, so they cant all be as amazing as the majority seem to think?


We could all buy 'Faster cars' and not bother with fiddling round with these French Rattle Boxes and wasting our money (As after all, EVERY MODIFICATION is a waste of money in the long run and you will never make back the money we plough into these little cars, or any other car)


Wouldn't it all be dull if we were all the same and had the same cars and opinions?

 

[aucky]

in fact id like to wager a 172 with exhaust, maxogen, matched inlets and a proper remap would get the same gains as a rs2 would on a like for like car.

Maxogen - £400
Remap- £350
Mounts - £250
Spare inlets + matching - £200
Exhaust - £350

= £1500 without fitting.

I'm happy with where my money has gone.
Either way its like getting blood from a stone trying to tune a clio engine on a budget.

 

[mr.pink87]

^No way you´ll get in the 190s with a Maxogen, exhaust and remap. You´ll get 250bhp on the AMD rollers.... I think in this thread is also a lack of mathematic and reading skills. So guys: if you never learnt to compare graphs or do basic mathematic operations in school => Post tits or GTFO!