Start-up gremlins

[pj_sibley]

My 182 Trophy has had an increasing number of start-up gremlins since I bought it in July. Always starts but the degree of hesitation and urgency is somewhat variable! Sometimes, it's like it can only just muster up enough energy to bumble into life and settle to idle. Problem seems to get worse following repeated start-ups throughout the day. The car runs absolutely fine otherwise.

As part of a load of refresh/overhaul work I'been doing on the car, the following have been replaced anyway:
- Spark plugs (genuine)
- Ignition leads (Magnecor KV85)
- Coil pack (genuine)
- Injectors (genuine)
- Battery (Bosch S4)
- TDC sensor/loom (genuine with blue connector)
- Coola temp sensor (genuine)
- Manifold air temp sensor (genuine)

Not quite sure where to investigate next, as there are no lights on the dash and no codes showing in RSTuner! Could it be a fuel supply issue?

Any suggestions?

 

[shaun442k]

I had the same issue on mine. Sometimes it would just get enough revs to start. Sometimes it didn't quite start. Always fine the second time though.
In the end it stopped starting.

Mine turned out to be the relay next to the engine fuse.

 

[shaun442k]

The starter relay on mine was the one i've circled in red.
The relay circled in blue is the engine fan(it was on mine). Try swapping these two over and see if your problem goes away(you'll be ok without the fan for a day or two at this time of year).
If it does, you'll need a 20/10 12v relay.

Nb, also check the connections from the loom to the starter motor, as I also had starting issues with a dry joint here!

 

[pj_sibley]

Great, thanks guys. Will definitely look into those potential fixes and report back.
@shaun442k, reassuring to hear that I'm not the only one who's had this issue.

 

[pj_sibley]

I've tried switching the three identical relays around, as suggested, but the start-up issues persist. Still hasn't actually failed to start but just takes ages and ages to spring into life and settle to idles....worse when warm.

I've also cleaned the engine earths and checked the starter motor spade connection, which seems secure.

Not quite sure where to turn next!

 

[Bluebeard]

Have you fitted a new battery yet?

These cars are REALLY battery sensitive and one that's not performing 100% can cause all sorts of mischief.

 

[pj_sibley]

Have you fitted a new battery yet?

These cars are REALLY battery sensitive and one that's not performing 100% can cause all sorts of mischief.

@Daniel, I fitted a brand new Bosch S4 less than 200 miles ago. Checked the voltage today before start-up, was reading a healthy 12.71 volts.

 

[Bluebeard]

I have no idea then. I'll get back in my box.

 

[pj_sibley]

I have no idea then. I'll get back in my box.

I really do wish it was as simple as changing the battery! Thanks anyway :up:

 

[Gus]

How long do you have to hold the key in the ignition position for before it will start and do you need to press the accelerator at the same time for it to start.

Im wondering if you have replaced the injectors with the correct ones - can you check and report back which ones you have installed. There are some which come up as the right ones on ECP and ebay etc that are wrong.

 

[Jack!]

Problem with the starter motor itself? Clean the spade connector that connects to the starter? More likely to either start or not at all if that's that issue, both worth a go.

 

[pj_sibley]

Thanks @optical and @Jack!

When the issue is at its worst, I have to hold the key turned in the barrel for a good 3-4 seconds before ithe engine stumbles into life. A little prod of the accelerator helps slightly but it has always 'caught' on its own. As mentioned above, sometimes the car just starts as it should, no problems whatsoever (particularly when left overnight first or immediately after switching off).

The injectors were like for like Magneti Marreli IWP042 replacements via an eBay seller and had identical part numbers/markings when compared to the originals upon removal. The start-up issues began before the injectors were replaced too.

I agree on the starter motor. It ALWAYS starts at the moment and you can hear it cranking fine, so I don't think it's that.

 

[krappy]

I had a starting issue where the car would sometimes struggle to start - almost chug into life. Seemed to be worse on colder mornings. If you turned it off and then tried to start again it was fine. Long term fuel trim values were way off as well. Anyway, a new front O2 (lambda) sensor solved it. Car felt heaps better after it too

 

[pj_sibley]

I had a starting issue where the car would sometimes struggle to start - almost chug into life. Seemed to be worse on colder mornings. If you turned it off and then tried to start again it was fine. Long term fuel trim values were way off as well. Anyway, a new front O2 (lambda) sensor solved it. Car felt heaps better after it too :smile:

Thanks @krappy. I had my pre-cat (front) O2 sensor replaced a couple of months back when the car threw an emissions warning light. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to change the post-cat sensor too?!

 

[pj_sibley]

I'll put this out there, happy to be shot down in flames(!), but is the fact that I switched the car over to VPower 99 Nitro+ soon after purchase something to do with things? The issue has definitely worsened since I put a whole tank of 99 in, as the first tank was mixed with the 95 the previous owner used.

I've read on the forum that people have had similar issues when switching to this specific fuel type. Sounds a bit too unusual?!

 

[krappy]

Thanks @krappy. I had my pre-cat (front) O2 sensor replaced a couple of months back when the car threw an emissions warning light. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to change the post-cat sensor too?!

Ah ok - as long as you replaced with a decent O2 sensor ( OEM/Bosch?) then you are probably ok on that front. AFAIK the rear/post-cat sensor doesn't do much at all, so not sure changing that would have any effect?

 

[pj_sibley]

Ah ok - as long as you replaced with a decent O2 sensor ( OEM/Bosch?) then you are probably ok on that front. AFAIK the rear/post-cat sensor doesn't do much at all, so not sure changing that would have any effect?

Yep, it was a correctly numbered Bosch item and the emissions light cleared fine after it was replaced.
Per my post above, I think I'll try some different fuel in it next and see if that makes any difference whatsoever.

 

[RS Charlie]

If you have the original Renault leads I would try to refit them. On my RST and other cars (Civics and Porsches) Magnecors have always given me some kind of issue. I am not saying they are the fault but any faults in the way will not help matters.

 

[pj_sibley]

If you have the original Renault leads I would try to refit them. On my RST and other cars (Civics and Porsches) Magnecors have always given me some kind of issue. I am not saying they are the fault but any faults in the way will not help matters.

Thanks for the advice. Issue is no worse/better since fitting the Magnecors but will swap back to originals and see if it makes a difference.

 

[pj_sibley]

So, used the car today and started up three times:

1. 8am from cold and after a few days sat in the garage - started first time and without a fuss. Drove nicely to work, no issues whatsoever.

2. 12.15pm partially warm after 4 or so hrs sat in the car park - reluctant to start, limped into life eventually and idle very unsettled initially. Held the key in the ignition for approx. 3 seconds but still started first time. Switched off and didn't drive anywhere.

3. 5.30pm from cold again after a further 5 hrs sat in the car park - started first time with little fuss, not quite as cleanly as the start of the day but drove home fine.

It would appear that, unless I'm mistaken, my start-up issue could be engine/coolant temperature related. TDC sensor and loom were updated to the newer blue connector type last week, so it won't be that.

Perhaps something to do with the coolant temp sensor or loom (affecting ECU mixture control??), as I've read that Renault did an updated CTS looms for 182s during the original warranty period? Perhaps my wiring is the issue?

 

[RS Charlie]

Personally I'd get it onto a good OBD reader (iCarsoft or something like Snap On - the latter was OK on mine) or fine someone with Renault CLIP; can this read live data? You could spend a small fortune buying sensors and getting nowhere. I bought a car in a similar scenario TBH and almost went down the same path.

 

[pj_sibley]

Personally I'd get it onto a good OBD reader (iCarsoft or something like Snap On - the latter was OK on mine) or fine someone with Renault CLIP; can this read live data? You could spend a small fortune buying sensors and getting nowhere. I bought a car in a similar scenario TBH and almost went down the same path.

Thanks @RS Charlie - what was the issue with yours in the end?
My friendly Renault mechanic has CLIP, so will be asking him to take a look soon. Also have a friend with RS Tuner, so may be able to get some live figures off that. There are no fault codes stored at present, I know that much.
It's like a puzzle....

 

[RS Charlie]

That was a 2006 VW Passat B6 1.9 TDi (PD). It had a very odd but common problem. Basically it idled ok, but as soon as you touched the accelerator it misfired constantly, getting worse and more agressive under load to the point that it shook the car. It also threw out a lot of black smoke upon touching the accelerator.

It only had one fault code; it said the MAF reading was too low. All of the forms told me to change the MAF sensor but that just did not sit right with me for it to misfire as badly as it did. Plus disconnecting the MAF made little difference to the running ; it still misfired horrifically. Diesels also not really need MAFs as much as petrols ; they are more of an emissions tool. Previous garages thought that the injectors or wiring loom was iffy going to the injectors. The PD injectors going in the 1.9 is not all that well known but the wiring loom has been known to die. When a specialist put VCDS onto the car he check the MAF reading and injector stabilisation values. He then concluded that I either had 3 shot injectors or more likely a knackered camshaft. It was the latter.

To this day I have not seen a camshaft in one piece worn quite as badly. Without resetting the ECU the car intitially smoked but it was already running spot on. Down the road the smoking went completely and the EML light also went off.

That is why I said to get some proper data via someone who knows what they are doing about the car. Many 'good' mechanics misdiagnosed the car.

 

[pj_sibley]

Looking to plan some live data monitoring during both cold and warm start-up in an attempt to see what's going on.
Which sensor readings should I focus on and what sort of readings should I see pre-cranking and at idle? I'm thinking coolant temp, inlet air temp and manifold air pressure are all worth taking a look at as a minimum?

 

[pj_sibley]

The live data I've collected for IAT, CTS, throttle position, MAP etc. on both cold and warm start-up all seems normal based on figures noted in various threads on here. I was concerned that, when the engine was warm, the ECU was not receiving the correct coolant temperature reading and applying cold-start settings, leading to the hesitation and unwillingness to start (although it always does first time...eventually). Anyway, it seems the ECU is receiving an accurate coolant temperature figure, whether its a cold or warm start-up. I've checked/cleaned all of the various sensor plugs and earth connections too, as well as replacing all three engine relays in the engine bay (one was on the blink anyway).

I've read about starter motor electrics suffering from heat soak (not just on Clios), leading to a weak start-up like I'm experiencing. Mine is 115k miles old, so wondering if that might be the next place to look, even if the heatshield is still in place? The spade connector and wiring to the starter motor itself all seem fine.