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Strange OBD Question
- Thread starter fatboymal
- Start date
Thanks for the replies.
You mean the Renault Diagnostic tool (excuse my ignorance)? Would the Renault tool show an over-rev or misfire when the fault codes had been cleared using a standard OBD tool?
There is a reason for the weird questions. I left a perfectly running car at a garage yesterday, which apparently developed a misfire and a possible "timing belt hop" whilst on the ramps. They plugged in an OBD tool to check it, apparently reset any errors, and then told me that was why my aircon had been turned off (I never turn it off). I am curious if I take the car to Renault will their tool show me anything else that might have happened while my car was "on the ramps" yesterday. Any ideas?
You mean the Renault Diagnostic tool (excuse my ignorance)? Would the Renault tool show an over-rev or misfire when the fault codes had been cleared using a standard OBD tool?
There is a reason for the weird questions. I left a perfectly running car at a garage yesterday, which apparently developed a misfire and a possible "timing belt hop" whilst on the ramps. They plugged in an OBD tool to check it, apparently reset any errors, and then told me that was why my aircon had been turned off (I never turn it off). I am curious if I take the car to Renault will their tool show me anything else that might have happened while my car was "on the ramps" yesterday. Any ideas?
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MicKPM
ClioSport Trader
Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
AC is an simple enough "with" or "without" configuration option to carryout with dealer level equipment but there is no way a generic ODB reader will have that kind of coding ability i'm afraid. Do you know what ODB setup they have as there are some aftermarket kits about that can interface with UCH and ECM configurations? There are also £300 Ching-chong Clip clones and reprog discs floating around on eBay which can and do do strange things when used (especially in the hands of muppets that think they know what they're doing).
Be honest, have you abused the car or do you suspect the garage has in someway?
I dont believe the Sirus32/34 ECM's have the ability to store these events but i could be wrong (as i've never really looked in to it). The AC config option merely tells the ECM when the demand request is sent (when the button is pressed) which in turn ramp the engines idle speed to compensate for the additional load on the engine. It should not cause a missfire as it has no effect on ignition/timing.
Be honest, have you abused the car or do you suspect the garage has in someway?
I dont believe the Sirus32/34 ECM's have the ability to store these events but i could be wrong (as i've never really looked in to it). The AC config option merely tells the ECM when the demand request is sent (when the button is pressed) which in turn ramp the engines idle speed to compensate for the additional load on the engine. It should not cause a missfire as it has no effect on ignition/timing.
Thanks for the reply.
I've owned the car from new, it has never been abused. It has recently had a full cam/aux belt service with plugs, oil, filter etc from a well respected renault specialist from this board. It was running very sweetly when it went into the garage. It was there as a disagreement over an earlier piece of work on their part, nothing to do with the engine at all. I even took one of their staff around the block, no problems. They then called me to say the problem lay not with their work but with the engine, and when I got there the bonnet was up and they told me they had used an OBD to look for faults. It was then running like a pig, misfiring a lot. They stated I should go back to the Renault specialist as there was a serious problem, that the timing was off, that at 6K there was metallic rattle that wasn't right.
I only questioned the AC as I always leave it on, yet when I had the car back it was turned off. When I asked the garage if they had taken the car out they denied it strongly. On me asking them why the AC had been turned off (my suspicion being that they had taken it out and the driver had turned it off), they replied that the OBD reader would have turned it off.
I guess I am trying to find out if a Renault tool would show anything to suggest they had taken the car out and abused it. I know coincidences do happen but I am trying to see if there is a way of finding out - the misfire gave then a very convenient "out" on our previous disagreement.
I've owned the car from new, it has never been abused. It has recently had a full cam/aux belt service with plugs, oil, filter etc from a well respected renault specialist from this board. It was running very sweetly when it went into the garage. It was there as a disagreement over an earlier piece of work on their part, nothing to do with the engine at all. I even took one of their staff around the block, no problems. They then called me to say the problem lay not with their work but with the engine, and when I got there the bonnet was up and they told me they had used an OBD to look for faults. It was then running like a pig, misfiring a lot. They stated I should go back to the Renault specialist as there was a serious problem, that the timing was off, that at 6K there was metallic rattle that wasn't right.
I only questioned the AC as I always leave it on, yet when I had the car back it was turned off. When I asked the garage if they had taken the car out they denied it strongly. On me asking them why the AC had been turned off (my suspicion being that they had taken it out and the driver had turned it off), they replied that the OBD reader would have turned it off.
I guess I am trying to find out if a Renault tool would show anything to suggest they had taken the car out and abused it. I know coincidences do happen but I am trying to see if there is a way of finding out - the misfire gave then a very convenient "out" on our previous disagreement.
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Even if they did take it out that doesn't necessarily mean they caused the fault, hence my question on any over-rev incident stored in the ecu. It's just a lot of coincidences, and being lied to pisses me off.
MicKPM
ClioSport Trader
Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
Sorry, I don't get why the A/C is such an "issue" though as its just an ON/OFF switch, unless the system no longer functions at all? Of course they're likely to drive the car and there's nothing wrong with that providing they're leagally insured to do so. It's impossible to "over-Rev" the car from the throttle pedal as the rev limiter will not allow it... hammering it and miss-shifting however will but, again, i'm not sure if this is stored anywhere on the Sirus 32/34 ECM's. Ideally, the first thing you need to do then, in my opinion at least, is have the vehicles timing confirmed as being correct/incorrect.
Who carried out the timing belt work? Chances are the work will be fine and if they're on this board the chances are they'll be a decent company who, if you don't go at them all cocked and guns blazing, will do their best to help you out.
Who carried out the timing belt work? Chances are the work will be fine and if they're on this board the chances are they'll be a decent company who, if you don't go at them all cocked and guns blazing, will do their best to help you out.
- If the engines timing IS the problem then the question is what has gone wrong, why it went wrong and then, what it needs to rectify.
- If the engines timing is NOT the problem then the actual fault clearly needs to be identified by a decent garage that won't spin you a line and a course for rectification (Including prices). Then, if there is any blame to be thrown around go from there
Mick, thanks again. To explain further a bit, I took a seemingly well running car into an exhaust fitter, that developed an immediately apparent fault whilst on their ramps. I will not mention their name until such a point I can establish more. If I cannot establish more then I will chalk it up to experience and move on.
It's not really an issue, it just suggested to me that the car had been driven, when they swore blind it had not. When I asked who had turned the aircon off, they stated it had been done by the OBD reader.
AP Developments. I have already spoken to Craig, the car was running really well since he change the belts and gave it full service and plugs, for the last 500 miles plus. I have only good things to say about his quality of work and professionalism.
This is the crux of the matter. Whatever the fault is, it happened whilst in the care of the fitter. It is perfectly possible that a coil pack, or a ht lead, developed a fault the moment it was on the ramps. I am sure this happens all the time, and would be of course no fault of theirs. The fitter suggested that either the coil pack was going or that the timing was off. If the car has been running fine for 500 miles, is it possible for the timing to become wrong suddenly? That is my concern. It may be a false concern, the car seems to run ok at various points in the rev range, with an intermittent hesitation.
I am planning to change the ht leads and coil pack initially with some investigation at a decent local garage, if that fixes it then great. If it does not then I will get the timing checked, Craig has of course offered to check this for me at no charge (he is confident that it is not/was not wrong, as it ran fine for 500 miles and he is confident in his work - and so am I) but it does take me a significant amount of time to reach Craig, so can a Renault dealer be trusted to check the timing?
It's not really an issue, it just suggested to me that the car had been driven, when they swore blind it had not. When I asked who had turned the aircon off, they stated it had been done by the OBD reader.
AP Developments. I have already spoken to Craig, the car was running really well since he change the belts and gave it full service and plugs, for the last 500 miles plus. I have only good things to say about his quality of work and professionalism.
This is the crux of the matter. Whatever the fault is, it happened whilst in the care of the fitter. It is perfectly possible that a coil pack, or a ht lead, developed a fault the moment it was on the ramps. I am sure this happens all the time, and would be of course no fault of theirs. The fitter suggested that either the coil pack was going or that the timing was off. If the car has been running fine for 500 miles, is it possible for the timing to become wrong suddenly? That is my concern. It may be a false concern, the car seems to run ok at various points in the rev range, with an intermittent hesitation.
I am planning to change the ht leads and coil pack initially with some investigation at a decent local garage, if that fixes it then great. If it does not then I will get the timing checked, Craig has of course offered to check this for me at no charge (he is confident that it is not/was not wrong, as it ran fine for 500 miles and he is confident in his work - and so am I) but it does take me a significant amount of time to reach Craig, so can a Renault dealer be trusted to check the timing?
MicKPM
ClioSport Trader
Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
I know Craig @ APD personally and whilst I've heard some people say his work isn't all its cracked up to be I've seen first hand how he rolls... he know the F4R well enough to time them correctly so agree, chances are its fine and not his fault. If he's far away then a Renault dealer can/should be trust worthy enough to confirm/deny the timing simply by removing the timing plugs and inserting both setting bar and crank pin... though they will no doubt charge you for a new set of plugs as they are consumables! Worst case, an hours labour and I think you'd be well within your rights to ask to watch the work be carried out to.
The way these engines are 'timed' unfortunatly leaves them open to sudden failure without any warning by "slipping" as everything is kept in place purely by compression of precision bolts which is why it is paramount that they're done by people that know what they're on with. To answer you above question yes, it is possible for an F4R to travel 20, 500 or even 6000 miles and then suddenly go wrong due to all kinds of factors; crank pulley bolt stretch, oil contamination due to a leak, aux belt snapping, incorrect orignal installation, etc... the list goes on which is why it is best IMO to let Craig or a specialist confirm to timing is correct/incorrect just as a matter of caution. It is also possible that they, the exhaust fitters, have done some damage if they've welded the exhaust up on the vehicle without protecting the various electrical componentry (I don't care if anyone disagrees with me as I was always taught that welding a vehicle can, does and will bugger some systems and components unless you remove both the positive and negative from the battery).
Mick
The way these engines are 'timed' unfortunatly leaves them open to sudden failure without any warning by "slipping" as everything is kept in place purely by compression of precision bolts which is why it is paramount that they're done by people that know what they're on with. To answer you above question yes, it is possible for an F4R to travel 20, 500 or even 6000 miles and then suddenly go wrong due to all kinds of factors; crank pulley bolt stretch, oil contamination due to a leak, aux belt snapping, incorrect orignal installation, etc... the list goes on which is why it is best IMO to let Craig or a specialist confirm to timing is correct/incorrect just as a matter of caution. It is also possible that they, the exhaust fitters, have done some damage if they've welded the exhaust up on the vehicle without protecting the various electrical componentry (I don't care if anyone disagrees with me as I was always taught that welding a vehicle can, does and will bugger some systems and components unless you remove both the positive and negative from the battery).
Mick
Mick, thanks again, most helpful. I must state that I fully agree with your opinion on Craig's work, I don't believe the cause of the problem lies there.
I'm assuming none of these would normally happen whilst stationary on a ramp? I'll get the electics checked first then the timing confirmed, either by Renault or most likely by Craig.
I'm assuming none of these would normally happen whilst stationary on a ramp? I'll get the electics checked first then the timing confirmed, either by Renault or most likely by Craig.
MicKPM
ClioSport Trader
Clio16v/Zoe Z.E.50
It's really impossible to say buddy - most fail under load but equally the timing can "creep" or just totally "slip" at idle to which is why when changing them you need to be sure there are no oil leaks and that everything is thoroughly degreased prior to installation of the new setup. If it has advanced, and i'm not saying it has, but if it has then you need to strip the belt side down to investigate and determin the cause. Sometimes bad shiz just happens but even though i've not seen the vehicle or heard it running, as the car starts and runs I don't believe timing is the issue.
Honestly, get the timing done first as it may seem like money wasted to some but to me it's money well spent just knowing its spot on! Was the dephaser changed? I'm just curious to know more than point a finger of blame... I usually keep one for the F4x and for the K4x in stock just to take out on jobs with me as I hate the bloody things.
Mick
Honestly, get the timing done first as it may seem like money wasted to some but to me it's money well spent just knowing its spot on! Was the dephaser changed? I'm just curious to know more than point a finger of blame... I usually keep one for the F4x and for the K4x in stock just to take out on jobs with me as I hate the bloody things.
Mick
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