The endless battle against Understeer

[Skeeter]

The VX220 that was following me when I spun was recording video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXgBlJYiZqg&feature=youtu.be&list=UUsV-FzDxIFXxXRR-w6Qg4fA&t=5m15s

I'd be interested to know if the difference in rear shocks is enough for me to look at changing them?

 

[Jay Payne]

Lol, i got caught on camera spinning too..

 

[mikes86]

Lol, i got caught on camera spinning too..

lol how did you manage that? aquaplaning + braking?

 

[Adam G]

a different piston valve design?

In my, very humble, opinion you will be quicker sticking to your lines than taking the usual trackday lines. The slow-in fast-out technique is not the absolute quickest way around - you racers know that so don't say otherwise!. The problem seems to me that you drive like I do on computer games- you know the right line to be quick and are aiming to get to the apex as quick as possible. In the games, or karting at your local track, you can practice until you get the balance perfect at the apex to turn the car precisely with full comitment and confidence at the last minute, but the clio just dosn't quite have the right balance to make it work from what I've seen.

Have you done any track driving or is your expert opinion from beating your girlfriend at Mario Kart then?
:rasp:

 

[Jay Payne]

lol how did you manage that? aquaplaning + braking?

Too much rear brake bias after taking the abs off. Ended up in the pitlane entry, facing the wrong way

 

[Cup_Phil]

Just watched that last video you posted - following the 172 cup with the rensport number plate

Watch at 2:55 - that's a classic example of where you are causing the understeer
The clio you're following goes past the yellow cone on the left before turning in - you yank the steering wheel left before the cone, turning into the corner too soon

Tuition is something I need too to be honest - most of what I learnt was following other peoples lines around lol

 

[Jay Payne]

No, no, no Phil, theres nothing wrong with his driving (see post 79)

 

[Adam G]

I thought the cones were empty flower pots.

 

[Skeeter]

Personally I thought they were targets for extra points? The way apex cones end up strewn across the track throughout the day suggests others think so too

Good spot though Phil. Number 1 cause of understeer - driving like a noob!

 

[Cup_Phil]

The slow-in fast-out technique is not the absolute quickest way around - you racers know that so don't say otherwise!. The problem seems to me that you drive like I do on computer games- you know the right line to be quick and are aiming to get to the apex as quick as possible. In the games, or karting at your local track, you can practice until you get the balance perfect at the apex to turn the car precisely with full comitment and confidence at the last minute, but the clio just dosn't quite have the right balance to make it work from what I've seen.

I'm sorry WTF? Get to the apex as quick as possible?
So if you turn in early and hug the inside all the way round you'd be flying then? LMFAO

And if slow-in fast-out isn't the quickest, what is? fast-in slow-out? hahahha

 

[Cup_Phil]

Personally I thought they were targets for extra points? The way apex cones end up strewn across the track throughout the day suggests others think so too

Good spot though Phil. Number 1 cause of understeer - driving like a noob!

That's all the gay MX5 and Caterham owners that can't keep there arse-end under control LOL

Although saying that one of the first days I did at Brands (in fact the first track day i'd ever done) was a novice day so they put braking, turn in, apex and exit cones out
I hit one of the apex cones and sent it flying at one point lol

 

[Skeeter]

A mate's MX5 ate an apex cone once. Got a massive slide on and ran over the cone. Then it vanished. No idea where it went. It wasn't on the floor anywhere near the corner, but wasn't in the car anywhere. Probably got caught and fell out further round the track, but I still believe the MX5 got hungry

Bit annoyed about the rear shock situation. Should I be worried about having mis-matched ones front/rear?

 

[Adam G]

Drifting is soooo much quicker, isn't it?:drunk:
When I go really fast I use these settings, you should too.
If you go into the options next time you book your trackday online you should find this page:

Use these and your problem's solved.

 

[Skeeter]

Tbh might just stick it in B Spec.

 

[warwickstingray]

Ha! Maybe different damping rates!? Without driving both or examining both i couldn't tell you i'm afraid. Hopefully someone knows!

 

[Cup_Phil]

Rewind : On

Problem solved LOL

 

[Adam G]

Tbh might just stick it in B Spec.

Please pick driver:
S Mowle
J Payne
T Hunter

 

[KevF182]

I'm no expert, but yes I've done plenty of track driving, enough to have an opinion like the rest of you

 

[KevF182]

I never said stick to the inside and you'll be flying, did I? FFS

You have your opinion, glad you found mine funny! You must know what I'm trying to say though?

To me, the whole idea of trail braking is not to slow down in a straight line and then at the last minute turn in, it's to ensure you can be faster at the entry phase by slowing the car whilst it's turning.

 

[Toastfrenzy]

Game play = real life...oh I'll remember that when I swap my 300mm steering wheel for a game pad......hmmmmm Slilly me, I must have my thoughts around the wrong way....when ever playing on PS or xbox think to myself this is nothing like RL. When really I should be thinking when driving around a track...Hmmm this is nothing like on the PS.......

Guess I'm too old school for this internets age.

 

[warwickstingray]

PS2 + GT4 and GT4 wheel I was 1 second a lap faster the next season. I'm not joking! Driving Sims can have some benefits but no they are nothing like real life. I just found that my inputs and consistency improved. That GT4 wheel is fecking sensitive. would love to upgrade to the current ones.

 

[Skeeter]

Bit harsh against Jengis maybe? I'm the one who drives like a numpty, remember

 

[AdamR]

Some good info here: http://www.racingonthecheap.com/recommended-reading/carroll-smiths-handling-guide/

As others have said, would be tempted to look at the 'human-based factors' first, the setup of your car seems good so shouldn't have excessive understeer

 

[Sir_Dave]

Bit harsh against Jengis maybe? I'm the one who drives like a numpty, remember

Well yeah, quite possibly, especially considering his following statement, which imho, is not wrong in the slightest:

To me, the whole idea of trail braking is not to slow down in a straight line and then at the last minute turn in, it's to ensure you can be faster at the entry phase by slowing the car whilst it's turning.

For me, the use of trail braking also enables later braking and a useful increase in weight transfer to the front of the car for improved turn-in. Needless to say, in order to work this technique correctly, the ability to heel & toe and catch the occasional 'dab of oppo' is quite useful, to both aid smoothness/late braking/mechanical sympathy in the former, and try to avoid the barrier in the latter.

To drive quickly however, you need to not only have knowledge of the lines, but also be competent in the various techniques (tuition can help with both, but practice really helps with the latter) - to the point where you dont have to think about which one to use at any given situation, you simply react to whatever feedback the car is giving you.

 

[Skeeter]

I need to learn to heel and toe. At the moment I'm being thwarted by the 'pat your head and rub your tummy' issue of it being un-natural and messing up the other things I'm doing (mainly making my braking irratic and jerky). Its also really hard to practice on the road.

Any good videos of write ups out there on the technique?

 

[Sir_Dave]

Any good videos of write ups out there on the technique?

Watch the master. RIP.



In the 1*2 you can do it exactly like above, although wearing loafers & white socks is optional.

 

[Skeeter]

LOL! Some friend and I are planning on taking lots of heel and tow 'mock' shots in a variety of different footwear and editing them into a track video!

I did take my loader style slippers to a trackday one too, just for the lulz.

 

[Skeeter]

Evening guys.

Just thought I would pop in to thank the ClioSport Driving School for their advice

Did Rockingham yesterday and focused on not driving like a noob, and my understeer has all gone . I've fitted a smaller (330mm) steering wheel which has made the steering heavier. This has made my imputs slower and more controlled which has helped a lot. Coupled with turning in later and smoother which opens out the exit of corners to stop power understeer the improvement is massive. This is the exact setup I was using last time out at Bedford when things were understeering all over the place, so we know where to point the finger .

Even in the morning when it was wet there wasn't much understeer. Pleanty of oversteer or general 4 wheel sildes at times though, but no spins!

Thanks guys!

 

[Tony Hunter]

Well done.

 

[MarkCup]

Nice. Well listened.

 

[ripp]

Try braking later/trail braking, will help weight transfer to the front end when turning into the corner. Ull need to be able to heel & toe for that ideally though.

Also fyi with eibach camber bolts, i got -2.9 at the front!!

what?? I could only go to -1,5 at the front! that's odd

 

[Peter_]

what?? I could only go to -1,5 at the front! that's odd

i had 2.9 at the front with camber bolts

 

[barnesautos]

I've just read the thread top to bottom , great read you guys are full of helpful tips. I'm out at Bedford next month so I'm still learning my heel and toe , its blooming difficult

 

[ripp]

i had 2.9 at the front with camber bolts

I don't get it, I know that on a non cup car there will be a little more camber due to the bolt spacing being shorter but nearly three degrees negative that's insane!

 

[cliobritt]

Why I nobody talking about LSD's?

I run this on my civic and understeer is a thing of the past!

http://www.tegiwaimports.com/mfactory-metal-plate-lsd-limited-slip-diff-b16b-hydro-3266/

 

[...]

Something that (and i skip read alot of the thread) that has not been pointed out is the the simple fact you hold onto the steering lock for far to long .

controlling and smoothing inputs is great however watch your video and notice where the marked top of your wheel is and i'll try and explain a sequence of events this is just how you should look to corner with a FWD , and i stand to be shot down by Fred , tony ash etc but here is the basics


approaching corner a corner choose your braking point , brake hard firm and straight change down and then start to come off the brakes but not completely as you turn towards the apex , you should be looking beyond the apex and at the apex this is where you go slightly wrong , you should be now looking down the track , and you should be UNWINDING THE LOCK ON THE STEERING WHILST APPLYING POWER . you don't unwind the wheel , and that is your major cause of understeer , for every bit of extra power you should be looking to get the front wheel to the point they are straight if you watch your wheel in the video i am not sure i once saw it past the apex unwound enough and it was held for way longer than it should .....


you would have the opposite problem if you were in a rear wheel drive car , you would be complaining of too much oversteer as holding the wheel causes the same issues but with the opposite result in a rwd car .



you will get there and eventually you won't have to think about it .

Harv.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Seems about right harv, an lsd is not the answer to an understeery car. Set up and technique comes first.

 

[...]

It was harder to type than to it was in my head .... explaining it is easier in person and its something I have seen every time I get a complaint of understeer ......

 

[Skeeter]

I though I recognised this thread

Cheers harv. The smaller wheel has smoothed out my movements, so I will now focus on combining the power and unwinding the lock to improve exits.

If I ever get my car back on the road, that is

 

[...]

I though I recognised this thread

Cheers harv. The smaller wheel has smoothed out my movements, so I will now focus on combining the power and unwinding the lock to improve exits.

If I ever get my car back on the road, that is

Skeeter get someone to give you some coaching .... get to one of the cliosport landow days .... or pay for a days coaching ... its the best money you will spend .... before I stopped racing I was still using a coach ... even when I went back to karting I used a top driver to coach me and we had great sucess ... everyone thinks they can drive well on track ... and the answer is we can all still improve .... the likes of josh cook dont win on raw talent alone .... andvtrack driving is an art