Track Tyres - Feedback and Recommendations

[imprezaworks]

When cold they can be a bit skittish but once warmer they seem brilliant, but that's on the road.

 

[adamlstr]

When cold they can be a bit skittish but once warmer they seem brilliant, but that's on the road.

I was on damp ring/spa, in an Evo. :smile:

 

[imprezaworks]

Ah, lol. Hopefully may work a tad better on a lighter car.

 

[alistairolsen]

The main issue with dry track tyres, beyond outright grip, is that road tyres wont stand the heat and fall apart. Most of the race series which run "road tyres" shave half the tread off to stop it moving around and warming up so much.
I don't really care about the lap times, but I do care about melting a decent set of tyres and having to write off the cost of a whole set in a day, plus getting the car home.

 

[imprezaworks]

Makes sense. I got these cheap so not too concerned if they only last a day.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I found Federal RSR great on the road and good on the track. My qualms with the RSR were the outside edges wore away long before the rest of the tyre, after a few laps they went off and you could feel the grip tailing off quite a lot. At the time I ran DS2500 pads and these would outlast the tyres. To counteract the outer tyre wear I found I was getting on for 4 degrees of negative camber which make the car skittish under braking.

I then changed to AD08R tyres as a few guys on here recommended them and they are a better tyre by far. I've managed to reduce the camber to 3 degrees, acceleration, braking and overall stability has improved because of this. Also they don't go off, I feel I should give the car a break and at that point the tyres are fine; to the point that after changing from RSR to AD08R I cooked my DS2500 completely and had to bin them. I now run RC5+ which don't fade.

However neither the RSR or AD08R compare with a proper R tyre in the dry. Some people say about 90% of the grip, compared with the DZ03G I'd say about 75-80% tbh. In the wet it's a different story and both RSR and AD08R have impressed me with wet performance although I'd like to compare it with a decent road tyre.

In January 2013 I changed wheels on my Mk2 Fiesta turbo, it was a cold, wet January. And on the road I found the grip from some H1 compound DZ03G better than the Maxxis MA-Z1. In standing water it may have been a different story.

 

[TarkMalbot]

I am going to try Nankang NS-2R 195/50 R15 86 W medium

read more: http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-details/nankang-ns-2r-195-50-r15-86-w-medium#81317986

I read that the side walls were a bit soft on these and the pressure had to be increased but not sure if this was on the 82 index loading or the 86 so think I will go with the 86 XL (and because thats what opneo have and they are cheap. That siad I think with the weight of a stripped 172 with 200bhp a set of Soft would last ok?

 

[imprezaworks]

Arnt soft really used for sprints due to getting up to heat quickly. On track would they not last very long?

 

[TarkMalbot]

Can't see anywhere that sells the soft anyway.

 

[JamesBryan]

What pressure did you use on your AD08R's @Ph1 Tom

 

[imprezaworks]

Can't see anywhere that sells the soft anyway.

Ah sorry mate thought you were refering to the soft compound. I'd try these over the rsr's.

 

[antnee]

Interesting.... R888 is being replaced

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Toyo-R888R-Launched.htm

 

[TarkMalbot]

Ah sorry mate thought you were refering to the soft compound. I'd try these over the rsr's.

I was referring to the soft compound.
I am just going to go with the medium with 86 load index.

 

[imprezaworks]

Interesting.... R888 is being replaced

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Toyo-R888R-Launched.htm

Interesting. They will probably be a fortune, maybe bring the prices of the others down?

 

[172_Tom]

I found Federal RSR great on the road and good on the track. My qualms with the RSR were the outside edges wore away long before the rest of the tyre, after a few laps they went off and you could feel the grip tailing off quite a lot. At the time I ran DS2500 pads and these would outlast the tyres. To counteract the outer tyre wear I found I was getting on for 4 degrees of negative camber which make the car skittish under braking.

I then changed to AD08R tyres as a few guys on here recommended them and they are a better tyre by far. I've managed to reduce the camber to 3 degrees, acceleration, braking and overall stability has improved because of this. Also they don't go off, I feel I should give the car a break and at that point the tyres are fine; to the point that after changing from RSR to AD08R I cooked my DS2500 completely and had to bin them. I now run RC5+ which don't fade.

However neither the RSR or AD08R compare with a proper R tyre in the dry. Some people say about 90% of the grip, compared with the DZ03G I'd say about 75-80% tbh. In the wet it's a different story and both RSR and AD08R have impressed me with wet performance although I'd like to compare it with a decent road tyre.

Good post, thanks! Interesting to hear your comparison of the RSRs vs AD08Rs. Another thing going for the AD08Rs is a full 8mm tread depth when new - pretty sure the Federals are more like 5-6mm.

I'm running a set of 195/50/15 AD08Rs and have been really impressed with them especially in the wet (see my thread with a vid round Brands). I'm running 2 and a bit degrees camber up front and have not really had any uneven wear either.

I would also agree with your estimate of AD08Rs having about 75% of the dry grip of an R tyre rather than 90%.

 

[StuOwen86]

Interesting.... R888 is being replaced

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Toyo-R888R-Launched.htm

Wonder what prices these come in at. I'm glad I stuck with 15" though. Is there much difference between 195 and 205 in the 15"

 

[Ph1 Tom]

What pressure did you use on your AD08R's @Ph1 Tom

30psi hot on the front, 28 on the rear.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Wonder what prices these come in at. I'm glad I stuck with 15" though. Is there much difference between 195 and 205 in the 15"

The MSA are 're rating the tyres so today's R rated tyres might become list 1C and the new R888R will be 1B. Basically it's for improved wet weather performance because of the concerns with wet performance of the current R888, A048 etc.


As for width I run 205, they fit the wheels better and you get a few mm extra rubber.

 

[TarkMalbot]

As my Comp 2's are only 6.5" wide I am going to stick with 195.

 

[-Jamie-]

I am going to try Nankang NS-2R 195/50 R15 86 W medium

read more: http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-details/nankang-ns-2r-195-50-r15-86-w-medium#81317986

I read that the side walls were a bit soft on these and the pressure had to be increased but not sure if this was on the 82 index loading or the 86 so think I will go with the 86 XL (and because thats what opneo have and they are cheap. That siad I think with the weight of a stripped 172 with 200bhp a set of Soft would last ok?

Don't know where you read that, the sidewalls on them are proper stiff, felt like going up a spring rate

 

[TarkMalbot]

Don't know where you read that, the sidewalls on them are proper stiff, felt like going up a spring rate

A member called ProjectGT said the following regarding them:

"Do NOT waste your time on these tyres. A friend and I went to the 'ring last month, both of us purchased clio 172 phase 1s and these tyres in the 120 compound. Quickest lap was a 9:08. Had we had Toyo 888 tyres, we would have been in the late 8min laps.

The tyres lack bite, so you end up compromising corner entry speed and exit. Under steer!
They also get hot and fold over, we had to run 40 psi up front in the end so that once hot, they didn't run on the sidewalls."

 

[-Jamie-]

Lol, thats a load of BS.

The sidewalls on them are stiff, Comparable to a proper R rated tyre like a direzza or PSC, Infact the 888's sidewall isn't even as stiff as them

I have ran them in both soft and med and rate them highly for the price, good all round tyre. wouldn't use them as a dedicated track tyre on spare wheels though, Thats what the likes of PSC's/Direzzas etc are for IMO.

 

[imprezaworks]

May be a daft question. My spare fifteens are 6.5j. Would 195 on the front or back, and 205 front or back work?

 

[Ph1 Tom]

W

As my Comp 2's are only 6.5" wide I am going to stick with 195.

Why? Recommended width rim for 205 tyres is 6.5".

 

[Ph1 Tom]

May be a daft question. My spare fifteens are 6.5j. Would 195 on the front or back, and 205 front or back work?

You could go 205 front and 195 rear. 205 all round or 195 all round.

In the DZ03G for example the 205 are a hard compound and the 195 are medium so its a good front/rear setup for grip from a start of a race for example as the rear won't dance around as much.

 

[TarkMalbot]

W

Why? Recommended width rim for 205 tyres is 6.5".

Correct:

Minimum
tyre width185
Ideal
tyre width195,
205
Maximum
tyre width215

I was getting confused and for some reason. Still going for 195 though to make sure clearance is ok and they are cheaper. For what I will be doing over the next 12 months I don't think I will notice much difference between 195 and 205.

 

[imprezaworks]

You could go 205 front and 195 rear. 205 all round or 195 all round.

In the DZ03G for example the 205 are a hard compound and the 195 are medium so its a good front/rear setup for grip from a start of a race for example as the rear won't dance around as much.

Tom. The tyres are a048's wether that makes any difference. Handling wise can i expect it to act differently?

 

[Scaramac]

Simple answer is it depends what you want from them. I want to use the car on the road and on track, and outright pace is irrelevant, so I use part worn A048s from various race classes which are £100-150 a set and will take the heat of a dry trackday without breaking up. For the road I use rainsport 3s as they come well recommended for the clio and will probably survive wet track use ok.

If i was chasing tenths for racing I would buy new tyres, if for road legal hillclimbs Id buy some pacific rim tyre that tops this years MSa tyre list, but would be shocking in the wet and not last long.

Horses for courses!

I agree that for the occasional track day, part worns would be a clever choice to keep costs down. Would you mind saying where you tend to source these from as 100-150 is a fair saving?

 

[TarkMalbot]

I have been looking at R888 this morning on eBay and even ones with a few mm tread on them are still being sold for the same price as the Federal's and Nankang's. Are you better off with a better performing second hand tyres or compromise some performance for new tyres that will last much longer. Only the driver/buyer of the tyres can answer that I suppose and depends what they are being used for.

 

[imprezaworks]

Cost plays a big part imo

 

[warwickstingray]

I've haven't heard of anything new in the pit lanes this year. Still the same old rubber doing the rounds!

 

[imprezaworks]

'go all time attck', love it, lol. I guess you have done a fair few trackdays?

 

[alistairolsen]

Ebay, or racers in the various race series if you keep an eye out.
The BMW compact cup has just had a regulation tyre change away from R888 so those are up for sale, mini coopers race on A048R 15s, the renault clio 182 series runs on Direzzas, but it's just a case of being in the right place at the right time, for instance here: http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7482

 

[imprezaworks]

I've haven't heard of anything new in the pit lanes this year. Still the same old rubber doing the rounds!

? how come you edited the post?

 

[warwickstingray]

'go all time attck', love it, lol. I guess you have done a fair few trackdays?

Ah you saw that post [emoji14] I've edited it away now. Was a bit aggressive.

I started doing sprints with my dad and then the odd track day and then because the costs far exceeded the fun we now do mainly track days. Half a dozen a year or so.

What I have learned over that time is how to work with components and not destroy them. Makes life a lot easier and is a different challenge.

It's easy to put your hand in your pocket to go faster. I should have more money this year so could get a set of proper tyres but I like this path for the moment. It's highlighted so many areas of my driving that are just plain awful. Shoddy inconsistent heel and toe, hit and miss trail braking. A completely lack of repeatability of a good lap even at lower speeds. The list goes on.....

 

[imprezaworks]

I didnt think the post was ott atall, pretty sound advice really.

 

[warwickstingray]

I didnt think the post was ott atall, pretty sound advice really.

Gone now

Well the short version I guess is to spec your car how you intend to drive and be prepared to fork out for it. Especially if you go all time attack and ask everything of your car 100% of the time.

Occasional track day/road products are not designed with a permanent time attack style in mind. It's really really hard on the car. I swear the dedicated cup racer cars have less expected of them then the average cup track day hack.

I haven't found a cheap way of getting round this unless as I've said you are prepared to work with the cheaper choice and enjoy what it can offer rather than try and force it to show up the choice you didn't fork out for.

 

[alistairolsen]

Even in time attack its not too bad, its racing where you cant have a cool down lap, or come in after 15 mins. Endurance is, IMHO, the single hardest thing to achieve.

 

[warwickstingray]

I agree although I've seen some amazing tyre wear in one Lap with bigger and heavier cars but even in racing you may not be on full attack lap after lap as there will be some constraint that prevents you from doing so tyres or fuel etc or if you are the car has been specified at great cost to do so or rebuilds and replacement after the race is expected. You just wouldn't use a part that would possibly prevent you from caning the person in front until you get past or they make a mistake. This is why I think people struggle on track days. They rarely have such a high level of skill that the car doesn't have to make up for some of it and then they batter it to within an Inch of it's life lap after lap and are suprised when club level stuff struggles. Tyres or otherwise. Christ the stuff those poor front struts have to go through in the hands of some it's no wonder the geometry goes to pot.

Christ if I ever posted some closely comparable lap times that the only reason they are remotely even is because I always c**k up somewhere in a lap I'd die of shock let alone posting a qualifying style lap every time out.

I'll worry about tyres the day that happens. Five tidy laps in a row where I know that's all my boggo cup has is my goal.

 

[warwickstingray]

And I was referring to a time attack style being used every single lap not just for 1 as it normally is.