Trophy Sachs Rebuild

[RexinaTrophy]

My Sachs have now been rebuilt at a cost of £583.20 (inc VAT) by BG Motorsport. A brilliant service, very quick turnaround and smiles all round.

However, I am a little frustrated with Renault. Clearly, when deciding how to see off the 182 they saw 1000 or so Sachs suspension units and thought, "ah yes Claude, we can go round to your house, drink some wine, share our wives and then put these suspension units on the 182." Rene replied, "Cest fantastique! We will make the ultimate handling hot hatch and sell to the British."

Brilliant, except one thing: they never told us when to service the Sachs front units. The cam belt, aux belt, seat belts and various other bits have service intervals. These suspension parts, much like the forks on a bike, need servicing. They are not mass produced throw away items which can be found, for example, on the Clio 200 Cup.

Yes there appears to be no rhyme of reason for the need to service (Harry Metcalf's failed after 16,000 miles and mine were okay after 45,000 miles) but a guide line would have been nice.

It really does smack of poor forward planning and spur of the moment product development. They did make a hell of a car though and FY55 now feels stiffer and more agile than ever.

Great work Mr Ben Fricker! Try harder next time Rene and Claude.

 

[Steve]

Renault may not be aware but he head of Renaultsport was.
At RWS 2006 at Donington he came across to several of us standing round our Trophys & told us so

 

[theduck]

How you can be that bored so early on a Saturday morning is beyond me

 

[Mike_182]

Well, as they're motorsport units you rebuild them every couple of races or every season depending on what category you're racing in. As you've quite aptly demonstrated, getting them rebuilt every 16,000 miles is a waste because yours lasted 45,000, however getting them rebuilt every 45,000 miles is daft because Harry's needed doing after 16,000.

So what do you want them to do?

 

[RexinaTrophy]

How you can be that bored so early on a Saturday morning is beyond me

I'm having a carpet fitted and I have two choices: 1) watch them fit what is essentially a beigh mat or 2) rant about something I have absolutely no control over.

I chose the latter.

 

[Poopensharten]

Whose Claude?

 

[RexinaTrophy]

Well, as they're motorsport units you rebuild them every couple of races or every season depending on what category you're racing in. As you've quite aptly demonstrated, getting them rebuilt every 16,000 miles is a waste because yours lasted 45,000, however getting them rebuilt every 45,000 miles is daft because Harry's needed doing after 16,000.

So what do you want them to do?

Provide a guide. If they do this again, perhaps to the 200, then they should at least say the front suspension will need rebuilding. Upon the Trophy's launch this was not made known and as Steve has said, they knew it all along.

Only an off the cuff conversation lead Steve to BG Motorsport and then a whole raft of Trophy owners having their Sachs rebuilt.

Not all Renaultsport owners are well into racing, have beards and are aware of the proper way to maintain them. You buy a car and expect certain parts to be fine for 100,000 miles. This is the default position of most owners.

Next time Renault, do better.

 

[Mike_182]

But you'd be b**ching if the Trophy had standard suspension, and you'd not have bought a Trophy if someone had told you "Every so often (we're not sure, just when it breaks) you'll have to spend £600 to fix the front suspension".

So, again, what are they supposed to do? Suspension wears out on 'normal' RenaultSports. Wasn't there one which had a habit of a rear damper failure that threw a couple of people into a field? And my mate's got a Colt that you bounce the front suspension on and you can come back out 10 minutes later to see it still bouncing.

You are aware that just because the book doesn't say it needs replacing, that bits of cars and bikes still need maintaining?

 

[ForceIndia]

I nearly fell victim to this, as Renault didn't hold my hand and tell me when my tyres would need replacing, and the 1st fuel of tank was a scary experience I can assure you!

 

[Iain C]

I'm having a carpet fitted and I have two choices: 1) watch them fit what is essentially a beigh mat or 2) rant about something I have absolutely no control over.

I chose the latter.

lol

 

[.Ben.]

I nearly fell victim to this, as Renault didn't hold my hand and tell me when my tyres would need replacing, and the 1st fuel of tank was a scary experience I can assure you!

 

[Poopensharten]

Seriously, whose Claude?

 

[SoA2k6]

You rang?

 

[BenG]

But you'd be b**ching if the Trophy had standard suspension, and you'd not have bought a Trophy if someone had told you "Every so often (we're not sure, just when it breaks) you'll have to spend £600 to fix the front suspension".

So, again, what are they supposed to do? Suspension wears out on 'normal' RenaultSports. Wasn't there one which had a habit of a rear damper failure that threw a couple of people into a field? And my mate's got a Colt that you bounce the front suspension on and you can come back out 10 minutes later to see it still bouncing.

You are aware that just because the book doesn't say it needs replacing, that bits of cars and bikes still need maintaining?

Yes telling us Trophy owners that the dampers needed servicing every so often would have helped, alot actually !

If something is designed to be serviced there should be a recommended service interval . Not quite the same story for other Renaultsport Clio's is it.

However these dampers are designed for motorsport use and there should be a recommended service interval for when in use with motorsport. With them being fitted to a road car for road use this will more than likely become irrelevant.

 

[ForceIndia]

I genuinely don't get where people are coming from. Any suspension will require renewal/servicing. Did they all think it was magic suspension that would outlast the human race?

 

[BenG]

No. We were just unaware that they needed servicing or that they were designed to be serviced or where to take it to when they did need servicing. Obviously parts on a damper wear out were not thick !

RexinaTrophy's point is that Renault give us no indication of any of this and Steve just pointed out that Renaultsport did actually know, so they should have told us.

 

[Poopensharten]

I think it would be difficult to guage when/if they would need serviced.

The roads are so different in Britain to abroad that lets say for example the 50 Tophys destined for Switzerland might have an easier life as there roads are smoother thus meaning maintenance might not be needed until 80k or longer.

Britains roads are shocking full stop. Suspension is a wear and tear item and one of the 5 main causes of MOT failure!

I can see why Renault couldnt put a time line to it in fairness

 

[BenG]

I think it would be difficult to guage when/if they would need serviced.

The roads are so different in Britain to abroad that lets say for example the 50 Tophys destined for Switzerland might have an easier life as there roads are smoother thus meaning maintenance might not be needed until 80k or longer.

Britains roads are shocking full stop. Suspension is a wear and tear item and one of the 5 main causes of MOT failure!

I can see why Renault couldnt put a time line to it in fairness

Me too I agree with that totally. The dampers will probably have a recommended service interval for motorsport use but its a different story for road use as other factors come into play. as stated some fail at 16K and some are going strong at 45K.

But none of us were aware that they were designed to be serviced, Renaultsport knew this so they should of give us an insite. We only found out through word of mouth and thats only because Steve was in the right place at the right time.
Instead owners would have to fork out £3000 for a new set ! when all along they could be serviced for an 8th of the cost !

 

[BenG]

Even if nothing else in the damper fails the gas pressure will decrease over time and this it what they should have based a recommended service interval on if nothing else.

 

[Mike_182]

Yep, but then when I'm buying a car one thing I check for is:

Cost of service - both minor and major.
Cost of tyres.
Cost of clutch.
Cost of suspension dampers.
Cost of a complete engine.

You've got to know those things in order to know whether you can afford to run a car! I'd say it was safe to say you need new dampers after 3 years as a general rule, and if you don't it's a blessing.

f**k me, that's how old Trophys are.

Oh, and by the way. Renault can't tell you that the dampers can be rebuilt, because they are unable to do it themselves. As such they become liable for a service provided by another party. It's exactly the same reason that I can only say on the phone to somebody that I use Virgin Media and their Broadband package and it works fine for me. I can't suggest that they should use it because it makes myself and the company I work for potentially liable for any and every issue that the person then encounters.

Sorry, you're not going to win this one.

 

[Mike_182]

Even if nothing else in the damper fails the gas pressure will decrease over time and this it what they should have based a recommended service interval on.

Then they become liable for any issues that arise with the suspension prior to this interval - much like you can claim a contributory amount for a cambelt failure at 4yrs and 45,000 miles if your servicing record is up to scratch, because Renault told you that it should last 5 years and 60,000 miles.

It's called covering your arse, and you'll find that Renault covered the dampers under warranty for the duration of the car as, whilst a wear and tear item, it's a fair assumption that it should last 2-3 years which is the duration of warranty on many cars.

 

[BenG]

^^ Thats fair enough then. Cant argue with that. :approve:

 

[BenG]

If that is the case thanks very much for the info Mike, thats all I needed to know. Why didnt you just say that to begin with, you were just causing arguments

All is good anyways because we all know where to take them for servicing now so its no longer an issue.

 

[Mike_182]

Yep - it's just that if Company A who you are paying for a service from recommends you to Company B for any work, any failings as a result of work carried out by Company B can be held against Company A. For a small independant this isn't so much of an issue as typically people who use these are decent enough to accept the advice on it's own merits. However the compensation culture Britain could sue anyone Renault referred them to for work if that work was substandard or failed.

It's why your dealer 'will be able to get scratches or dings repaired for you' but won't be able to put you in touch with the people they use, typically.

 

[Jamie]

I thought £580 is alot? I was internet quoted by dweebs who I guess know nothing £200/£300 to get refurbed? Is this miles out then?

LOL - just read Warrens replies, the fuel tank dig made me smile

 

[theduck]

Renault carry spares for replacing worn shocks iirc.

 

[BenG]

You can get replacement dampers off Reno yes.

£580 is alot. Mine cost around £440 but I also had the adjusters and the internal part of the adjusters replaced too. Thats with shipping from them to me included.

 

[theduck]

That is why there is no service intervals then ;-)

 

[HAPPYSLAPPER]

so how do you know when they need doing?

 

[Tav]

Try running a Polo G40/Corrado G60/Golf G60. The superchargers were hugely expensive to manufacture and prone to wearing out and failing. VW said the supercharger was a non-serviceable item. If it wore out and broke you'd get a replacement on warranty at a cost of well over £1300 to VW. Out of warranty you'd have to foot the bill.

Turns out though that they were a serviceable item. A lot of companies have made a living out of servicing them. Failures were caused by the fact that they are supplied with hot high pressure engine oil and the hard cut rev limiter. The oil bakes the seals and can even dislodge them. The hard cut limiter puts massive strain on the 'charger structure. Some chargers need rebuilt every 20k, other last over 100k without ever being looked at.

If VW had used a stand alone oil supply (as the aftermarket worked out) with low pressure and cool oil as well as a soft cut limiter they'd have had much less problems and the chargers might still be around today.

I think the Trophy situation has some parallels. If you want the performance from an unusual component there might be some compromises. There has to be a price to pay for the extra performance otherwise all cars would be fitted with these parts.

 

[theduck]

so how do you know when they need doing?

Same way you do on any other car...

 

[Fletcher]

so how do you know when they need doing?

When you go round a corner, and end up in a ditch

 

[HAPPYSLAPPER]

Same way you do on any other car...

:S never really had a car where the suspension needed rebuilding...

 

[JCC]

:S never really had a car where the suspension needed rebuilding...

What's hard to understand? Suspension on every car wears out and needs replaced eventually. Trophy suspension can be rebuilt at a much cheaper cost than replacing it. What do people not get about it?

 

[BenG]

Or when you start bouncing through corners instead of flowing through them smoothly.

 

[theduck]

Obviously didn't know suspension was a 'consumable'

 

[BenG]

:S never really had a car where the suspension needed rebuilding...

Basically mate when the dampers fail or are starting to fail you will notice a difference in the handling, the car wont feel as planted and begins to feel dodgy.

The trouble is unless you have owned the Trophy from new you wont know how it is suppost to feel with a 'fresh' set of dampers on so it can be hard to tell if they are due a service. Unless of course they fail completely i.e. A seal goes, in which case the damper will go soft, you will be able to bounce the front end and the car will start to bounce around corners as the spring is doing all the work.

The gas pressure in the Sachs dampers decreases over time which will affect the handling of the car even though everything else in the damper is fine. Because it decreases over time you dont notice a difference in handling until it gets to a point where it is really low and then causes problems.
There is a way for you to check this pressure by looking at the gap between the casing of the reservoir and the bracket on which it is held on by. it should be around 5mm, when the pressure decreases so does the gap.

If the dampers fail on a car you have them replaced as a whole. The Sachs dampers however are designed to be serviced at a fraction of the cost of a new set. Although this is still an expensive job.

 

[Naith]

lol @ rex, good little writeup

 

[ForceIndia]

In general, I doubt they wear out any quicker than normal 182 suspension, and I'm sure Renault would charge more for supply/fitting of standard dampers than the rebuilders charge for the Sachs.
If they needed rebuilding every 20k miles I'd still have them.

 

[HAPPYSLAPPER]

What's hard to understand? Suspension on every car wears out and needs replaced eventually. Trophy suspension can be rebuilt at a much cheaper cost than replacing it. What do people not get about it?

nothings too hard to understand sorry if i upset you:rasp: just wondered if there was any signs too look out for.